14 



And I have found in my experience those that have an interest 

 in those fisheries many times take better care of whatever they are 

 taking care of than somebody from the outside. 



Now I again will say I think your report is good. I am a little 

 resentful of the idea that someone can sit in a position to make rec- 

 ommendations to a legislative process, when in reality even your 

 statement says it has worked. There has been no violation. The vio- 

 lation, this is the only one, but in reality it has been not violated. 



In reality the intent is still intact so, again as I said, Mr. Chair- 

 man, you know, you took a little extra time too, I am going to re- 

 spectfully suggest that we are willing to look at some suggestions 

 to the amendments but the majority of that Council still has to 

 have expertise in the fishing field before we can implement the 

 original intent of the Act. 



Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 



Mr. Manton. Thank you. The chair recognizes the gentlewoman 

 from the State of Washington. 



Ms. Unsoeld. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, just very quick- 

 ly, the first point in your potential amendments to the Magnuson 

 Act, increase participation on the Councils of knowledgeable indi- 

 viduals who are not actively involved in fisheries. Were you con- 

 templating that would be over and above the current number so it 

 would be an expanded Council or a replacement? 



Mr. DeGeorge. Yes. Yes, I was. 



Ms. Unsoeld. Thank you. On your investigation, Mr. DeGeorge, 

 of the North Pacific Council, you concluded that there were no vio- 

 lations of conflicts of interest under the Magnuson Act. 



Now some of this you have gone over but I want to get a clear 

 record here. Did any of your findings indicate violations of laws 

 that Council is specifically exempt from and, if so, which laws? 



Mr. DeGeorge. The way that it has been explained to me is that 

 in effect that there were votes taken that benefited individual's fi- 

 nancial interests that, in effect, save but for the exclusion in the 

 Magnuson Act, would have been criminal. 



Ms. Unsoeld. And those would have been violations of what 



Mr. DeGeorge. 18 U.S.C. Section 208 which is basically a con- 

 flict of interest statute. 



Ms. Unsoeld. OK. In the legal background and recommendation 

 section of your report, you state, "Although we uncovered abuses, 

 our investigation did not substantiate any violations of criminal 

 laws. We found that conduct that is forbidden under criminal con- 

 flict of interest laws in other context is permitted under the laws 

 established in the NPFMC and the other regional Councils. The 

 legal framework governing the North Pacific Council operations 

 makes this possible. It anticipates and we think invites conflicts of 

 interest but exempts the Council's voting members and executive 

 director from some of the most important laws." 



In your experience, Mr. DeGeorge, have you ever encountered a 

 situation where behavior that would otherwise be considered a vio- 

 lation of a criminal statute is exempt simply because it involves a 

 particular industry? 



Mr. DeGeorge. No. 



