10 



Mr. Manton. Without objection, we will submit the potential 

 amendments that you propose. The 13 points outlined in your at- 

 tachment will be made part of the record. Mr. DeGeorge, do you 

 have any knowledge of how many times the regional Council mem- 

 bers or staff have been subject to some disciplinary action for con- 

 flicts of interest? 



Mr. DeGeorge. I know of a recent case and that is reaching cul- 

 mination in Honolulu but beyond that I do not know of any specific 

 circumstances. I do not think that there have been many sugges- 

 tions for actual discipline. 



Mr. Manton. So can we say whether or not there is a real prob- 

 lem which needs to be addressed or is it more a question of public 

 perception at this point? 



Mr. DeGeorge. Well, there is definitely a public perception prob- 

 lem. I think that goes without saying. Beyond that, you have to 

 start asking yourself, should this be the one program or is this pro- 

 gram important enough for local input and the direction to in effect 

 have an exception, a blanket exception, to the conflict of interest 

 statutes? 



Mr. Manton. I think you testified that Council members are the 

 only "government employees" who have a blanket waiver exception 

 to the conflict of interest rules? 



Mr. DeGeorge. To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Chairman. We 

 made an exhaustive check. I do not know of any other exception. 



Mr. Manton. If we merely excluded individuals with a financial 

 interest from the Councils, do we solve the conflict of interest prob- 

 lem? 



Mr. DeGeorge. I do not think it can be solved that way. I think 

 what we have to do is have a way of balancing out the decision or 

 the emphasis of giving sole decisionmaking to those people which 

 have inherent interest. 



My personal view is that the Councils would be better served to 

 have members that go beyond those who have a direct personal in- 

 fluence such as trawler owners, offshore owners, small boat owners 

 and the owners of processing plants. 



I think that you have to expand the consideration beyond those 

 people who are directly impacted because there are an awful lot of 

 people who are indirectly impacted. 



Mr. Manton. And what would some of those categories of people 

 be? 



Mr. DeGeorge. Well, I mentioned in testimony that I would cer- 

 tainly start thinking about somebody who represents the consumer 

 part of the equation, the people, and those people who represent 

 the ecology proportion of the problem. 



And I would ask myself whether the Councils could be improved, 

 that is my word, or at least better represented if we had members 

 from the general public, knowledgeable people who had perhaps re- 

 tired from the industry and had no direct financial interest at the 

 moment. 



The way I view the Councils, most of the membership are people 

 who have a direct immediate concern about the allocation of fishery 

 rights. I think the problem extends beyond that even to the point 

 of conservation, to the point of understanding exactly why some- 



