30 



We believe that that abrogates our treaties with the tribes, that 

 we are trying to produce fish for commercial use here over and 

 above what we are doing with ESA. Let me give an example of 

 where we think the system breaks down and you need to have 

 some independent group. 



About a month or two ago the Northwest Power Planning Coun- 

 cil gathered all the various agencies' scientists together to discuss 

 flow and survival, a critical issue with a great deal of uncertainty 

 and a great deal of controversy. 



Those people arrived in the room, some of them refused to show 

 the data that they had on the subject, some of them would not even 

 discuss the issue at the meeting. 



We simply have to stop things of that kind and be able to have 

 someone else take a look independently and say, all right, you have 

 done your best to put things together, we respect that, but if you 

 failed, we have to move ahead. 



We can't use the failure of reaching a consensus as an agreement 

 that we are going to stalemate and not move ahead. 



Ms. Cantwell. Thank you. Believe it or not— but you would say 

 that process has teeth moving ahead somehow after you had all the 

 discussion and then moving ahead. You have to have a process of 

 deciding then that you are moving ahead. 



Mr. Bevan. I think that is absolutely correct. And I see much in 

 the present system of not being able to reach that kind of conclu- 

 sion. 



Ms. Cantwell. My time is expired. Madam Chair, but if you 

 would like the other panelists 



Ms. Unsoeld. I think Mr. Holt seemed to be indicating he want- 

 ed to comment on that. 



Mr. Holt. Just one fact. Madam Chair, and it is true, we believe 

 that NMFS needs to take an active role in areas such as habitat 

 and others. Our fear is of course that when BPA approaches the 

 particular science in the new arena of biology that we will begin 

 to again duplicate and replicate the past of studying the creature 

 to death. 



And that is a strong contention that the tribes have and we be- 

 lieve the Pacific salmon treaties, chinook rebuilding program, the 

 Columbia River Fish Management Plan, have adequate and strong 

 direction and recommendation that should be considered. 



And certainly when we think of endangered species and the ESA 

 itself, the teeth of that particular act need to be revisited by Con- 

 gress. We find it rather ironic when the tribes under the new Re- 

 covery Team's plan focuses on tribal harvest as elimination of 

 usual and accustomed fishing sites. 



When the hydro system is given a no jeopardy, we find that this 

 is rather confusing and amazing that such fine minds throughout 

 the Nation would provide for a direction without actually research- 

 ing and revisiting some of the past actions and document science 

 and biology that exists. Thank you. 



Ms. Cantwell. Thank you. If I could just add. Madam Chair, I 

 don't want to underemphasize how much I realize that the North- 

 west Power Planning Council and the Recovery Team and the 

 Inter-Tribal Commission have done so far on this issue. Work has 

 been tremendous. We appreciate you getting us this far. We will 



