32 



Mr. BOTTIGER. Single species problem, what do you do when 

 what you do for one animal hurts another? And we have a lot of 

 that in the region. The other problem we have is, how long does 

 it take a hatchery-induced run to become a natural run or a wild 

 run, if ever? 



Because as we change the river, we have changed the fisheries' 

 makeup, and so we can have harm to a thriving fishery but it may 

 not be protectable because it is not "wild." 



The other half of your question — I am sorry, you are going to 

 have to help me — oh, the hatcheries. 



Ms. Unsoeld. The hatcheries. 



Mr. BOTTIGER. We would very much like to get started on 

 supplementation. As these runs drop there is going to be a time 

 when you either declare them extinct or you intervene. With the 

 sockeye we waited till we got down to eight fish. 



We are now down in the 600 figure in spring chinook. At some 

 point we start intervening or just let them go and the Nez Perce 

 has a supplementation proposal for the upper Snake River that we 

 think ought to be approved but it is an endangered species and 

 Rollie is going to have to get us a second permit. 



Other than that, hatcheries have been kind of a sop for the 

 squeaking wheel. If somebody complained enough you gave them a 

 hatchery. We probably got too many. We may have a river that 

 doesn't have the capacity to take 25 million juvenile fish all at 

 once. We may not have the food supply. 



Ms. Unsoeld. Would someone else like to — yes, Mr. Holt. 



Mr. Holt. Thank you, Madam Chair. Regarding the ESA, we be- 

 lieve that currently the ESA is somewhat the law of the land. In 

 many ways the tribes have been friendly to the ESA. Of course, 

 harvest has been an issue that has been put upon the tribes under 

 that act and we felt that, of course, as Madam Chair had men- 

 tioned ecosystem management in its approach, the concept itself is 

 of origin in the sense of the tribes have always been ecosystem 

 managers. 



However, we feel that the approach that NMFS and others use 

 in regards to managing the stocks should be that all stocks are 

 managed equally and not just those that are threatened or poten- 

 tially listed, and I think that complements and supports the eco- 

 system approach of the current Administration. 



And as far as the future role of hatcheries, we feel that there is 

 some substance there. Of course, our frustration is in areas such 

 as the Mitchell Act where those particular initiatives in the pro- 

 posal were to be putting fish back into the tributaries. 



Unfortunately, those fish now only return up to the Bonneville 

 dams on the Columbia and do not reach the tributaries. Mr. 

 Bottiger mentioned also the Nez Perce program for 

 supplementation. I would like to cite those words and statements 

 today back home because unfortunately we don't get the support 

 for that program. 



We are being met with political and scientific rhetoric at times 

 in our minds where we feel that a concept of gravel to gravel man- 

 agement of putting the fish back into the habitat of their origin is 

 the correct place. 



