33 



Certainly we can rear them at the hatchery to an age that is pro- 

 viding protection in the future, but we need to bring them back to 

 the tributaries and I think that provides for the Forest Service and 

 other Bureau of Land Management agencies to do a part in the eco- 

 system approach of managing the habitat for the future. Thank 



you. 



Ms. Unsoeld. I should have perhaps clarified or tried to summa- 

 rize, Ted. Would you say that the role of hatcheries needs to be 

 reinvented? We have very little data on 



Mr. BOTTIGER. We don't know why one hatchery gets a lot better 

 return. Is it the manager, is it the water supply? There is a lot of 

 science shortage in this area and reinvented, I am not quite sure. 

 You got supplementation 



Ms. Unsoeld. We got to learn something about how they have 

 functioned or not functioned and what we do to make our money. 



Mr. BOTTIGER. I am going to formulate a theory called density. 

 At some point you can't crowd any more people in the elevator or 

 they die and it must apply to fish too. 



Mr. Bevan. I certainly think they have a place. Madam Chair- 

 man. The difficulty that I think we have is that we have got over 

 100 hatcheries on the Columbia River. You would think that there 

 would be some overall plan in what they should be doing. We don't 

 have that plan. 



We do have some technical teams at work to look at some very 

 important factors, disease, genetics, etc., and I think that phase of 

 it is in pretty good hands but, again, hatcheries are run by public 

 utility districts, States, tribes, different Federal agencies and part 

 of the problem is no overall planning. 



Ms. Unsoeld. Rollie, I don't know what the correct term is in 

 this context. On a ski slope it would be coming down sweep but it 

 is your opportunity. 



Mr. SCHMITTEN. It is a fast ski patrol and I understand that. 

 Just a passmg note on the ESA. Frankly, let us not forget that it 

 is the single most significant piece of legislation for species survival 

 in the world and it is heralded as such throughout the world. 



I don't necessarily think that it is the Act that is wrong, often 

 it is the focus of the Act. It is the failure of agencies such as mine 

 not to respond or responding too late and not responding before a 

 listing, and I do agree, as I have said to the Chair many, many 

 times, that it is much superior to look at an ecosystem approach. 



As far as hatcheries go, hatcheries have proven to be a part of 

 the problem in the Columbia River. It doesn't necessarily mean 

 that we should do away with hatcheries, it means that we should 

 put out smart hatcheries. We should look at densities, we should 

 look at disease, we should look at release time, we should look at 

 necessary stocks. 



Oregon Trout made it very clear to us when they proposed for 

 listing the lower Columbia River coho that we had eradicated them 

 as a population by planting 36 other types of coho in a single sys- 

 tem; so we do need to have smart hatcheries. 



The final point is that we support the supplementation concept 

 and I think this is important because we have not always enun- 

 ciated that clearly to the tribes and others; and the we is both the 



