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the negative campaigning. Finally people have said, "I guess you 

 are right. I guess you are all bad." 



As a result of that, there is a general dissatisfaction with any- 

 thing the Government is connected with. I think it is up to us and 

 people like you to, in effect, reeducate the American public that 

 they are stuck with Government anyway and they may as well join 

 in and try to make it better rather than to constantly criticize. 



Since 1980, domestic discretionary spending in America has gone 

 from 25 percent of all the dollars we spend to less than 12 percent, 

 and it is going down all the time. We have less and less money to 

 spend as a percentage, but we are spending it on other things. As 

 a result of that, NIH is having tremendous difficulty giving their 

 research grants. Only a small percentage of the good grants are al- 

 lowed to be funded. This is the same as Dr. Glaze indicated. We 

 have graduate students who should be conducting research who are 

 not because they can't support themselves. 



We have this entitlement commission of which I am a member. 

 We are supposed to report to the President by December 20th with 

 ways that entitlements can be stabilized or that we can rearrange 

 taxes or both. So I appreciate your talking about some of these 

 things that are very boring to talk about. It is much easier to talk 

 about a B-2 bomber than it is about somebody doing research at 

 the University of North Carolina on butterflies, or something of 

 that nature. 



Mr. DeGennaro. Mr. Chairman, the vision that would unite both 

 the advocates of the B-2 bomber and of EPA R&D is the need to 

 invest in the future. I am hoping that later this year various advo- 

 cates of discretionary programs, which represent most of our in- 

 vestment budget, can come together and begin to talk about the 

 need for that kind of investment, and also give some political sup- 

 port to those of you on the Entitlement Reform Commission and 

 send a message that there are people out here who are concerned 

 about the fact that entitlements could eat the lunch of everything 

 else in the budget. We need to support you in your efforts to some- 

 thing about this. I know it is a lonely commission to be on. 



Senator REID. What steps should ORD take to support and en- 

 hance pollution prevention efforts? 



I would like to hear from all three panelists on this. 



What steps should ORD take to support and enhance pollution 

 prevention efforts? If you have already talked about it, let's talk 

 about it again. 



Dr. Glaze. In my opinion, there are some initiatives that are on 

 the board now that have not reallv been implemented that would 

 be very beneficial, namely the collaboration between EPA, NSF, 

 and N1ST in ventures which will bring in industry, academic peo- 

 ple, and Government people into teams which will carry out re- 

 search which is directed toward that goal. 



The real problem, as you know, Mr. Chairman, in carrying out 

 such research is the proprietary issue. Pollution prevention very 

 often involves getting into the nitty gritty of how to solve a particu- 

 lar problem at a particular site and there are definitely proprietary 

 issues involved there. 



But still it should be done and it can be done. There are long 

 range issues, for example, catalyst development which would allow 



