DISCUSSION 



Mr. FuQUA. Thank you very much, Dr. McDougall. It was a very 

 interesting historical perspective of where we have come from and 

 possibly need to go. 



You mention in the latter part of your discussion about taking 

 steps to ensure that we remain leaders only in those fields of sci- 

 ence and technology that we deem critical. Will international coop- 

 eration be detrimental or beneficial to achieving those goals? 



Dr. McDougall. Well, sir, I expect that it would depend on the 

 field. I know that your task force is not primarily interested in de- 

 fense fields. That clearly, though, would be one area in which we 

 would have to be very careful about international cooperation. 



In civilian fields, I think that international cooperation could 

 certainly play a role in helping us remain a leader. 



Mr. FuQUA. We are talking, really, in the basic research area, 

 not in the applied. 



Dr. McDougall. Right. 



Mr. FuQUA. It could be applied in a lot of different fashions. 



Dr. McDougall. I understand. This notion of competitive coop- 

 eration, of course, is a two-way street. Countries that perceive 

 themselves as being behind— the Japanese or the Europeans, for in- 

 stance, in the 1960's and 1970's— could use cooperative programs 

 with the United States to give themselves a running start in trying 

 to catch up with American research in certain fields that they 

 deemed critical to their economic future. 



And, of course, we can do the same thing in areas in which other 

 countries have facilities that perhaps we either do not have or do 

 not particularly want to spend the money to build; then we could 

 use international cooperation as a way of keeping us up with them. 



Everyone, I think, recognizes that there is a quid pro quo. Scien- 

 tists wear several hats, as we all do. I like to think of scientists as 

 just regular human beings. They are interested in their own work 

 and their own careers in their own universities. 



At Berkeley recently. President Mitterrand visited and signed 

 with the president of the University of California a big plan for ex- 

 change programs between French universities, and Berkeley, and 

 the other campuses of University of California. Clearly, one has 

 one's own university situation in mind, and one's own personal 

 career, in addition to one's national standing. Scientists exist in all 

 these worlds simultaneously. 



But looking at it from the policy point of view, governments who 

 fund these programs are clearly going to be asking for a quid pro 

 quo for any act of cooperation. What I am merely suggesting is 

 that when we negotiate such agreements for international coopera- 

 tion in big science, that those of you who are particularly interest- 

 ed in the standing of American science make sure that the effect of 

 a given program on American science and American science vis-a- 

 vis foreign efforts is kept in the forefront of the negotiation, so that 

 we do not, in a sense, bargain away a scientific program in return 

 for a diplomatic gain that the State Department might be pushing 

 for, or that— I am speculating— the position of American science 

 not be bargained away in exchange for a given agency simply 

 wanting to get international cooperation in, in order to improve 



