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DISCUSSION 



Mr. FuQUA. Thank you very much, Joe. 



You and I discussed this, I guess, prior to its release several 

 months ago. 

 Mr. Gavin. Yes. 



Mr. FuQUA. You mentioned the lack of commitment or appear- 

 ance of lack of commitment on the part of the United States and 

 that we were not a reliable partner. 



Now, are we not putting the horse before the cart if we come up 

 with a comprehensive plan and go to our potential collaborators 

 and say, "Here is our plan. Do you want to join in," and then they 

 say, "Well, you never asked us to participate in drawing up a com- 

 prehensive plan, and we think we know something about fusion 

 energy," as has been evidenced by what has happened in Europe 

 and also in Japan, who are probably our two most likely collabora- 

 tors? 



Mr. Gavin. I think the answer is very straightforward, and that 

 is that until we have demonstrated that we can put together and 

 have approved at the highest levels of the administration a plan, 

 we are not going to be in a position to discuss collaboration. 



I am extrapolating from the committee's work in saying that, so 

 I suppose this represents a more personal opinion. But from con- 

 versations we had, I believe that it is absolutely essential that 

 there be a plan that is underwritten both by the Congress and the 

 administration where we can say, when we meet with potential 

 partners: "This is what we have in mind to do. Now let's get to- 

 gether and see wherein we can find economies between us or better 

 ways of doing things or some division of the work so that every- 

 body doesn't have to do everything individually." 



The Europeans, I think, have done this to a certain extent, but if 

 you look at the national programs that are going on in the various 

 countries, you will find that there has been a reduction in the 

 amount of duplication. And certainly, the support of the Joint Eu- 

 ropean Torus has been, I think, a remarkable demonstration of 

 what can be done by collaborating, because certainly no one coun- 

 try could have comfortably supported that effort. 



Mr. FuQUA. I know you were primarily involved in fusion. But 

 would you say that would apply to other big science projects? 



Mr. Gavin. I think they have to be looked at individually. There 

 seems to be a very large difference in where the potential partners 

 stand at the beginning of any collaboration. For example, I am fa- 

 miliar with NASA and the Space Station, and it seems to me that 

 there this country has quite a different position with respect to its 

 potential partners as compared to where we stand in the fusion re- 

 search. We have made tremendous investments. We have done a 

 lot of work which has not been duplicated elsewhere. And it seems 

 to me we are in a position to be a stronger leader. I think in the 

 case of fusion as it stands today, we seem to be losing any edge that 

 we have, so that we are forced really to be a leader amongst equals 

 more than perhaps is necessary in dealing with the Space Station. 

 I think that in the case of almost any other international collabo- 

 ration, one has to look very carefully at the background that each 

 partner brings, to decide what is a reasonable approach. 

 Mr. FuQUA. Mr. Packard. 

 Mr. Packard. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 



