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more involved and more directly involved than industry has been 

 in this country, and I think perhaps more so than in Europe also. 



But that is still a long way off, that potential industrial impact, 

 but there should be somebody involved in this international col- 

 laboration to think about that. That is why I say I think you need 

 a technical committee and, for want of a better term, a business- 

 men's committee to advise the Congress and the administration as 

 to the progress of whatever program is undertaken. 



Mr. Packard. Do you believe that the industrial and business 

 community in the United States is largely neglected in terms of 

 policy setting, and are we neglecting to some degree an involve- 

 ment financially and otherwise with the private sector in our na- 

 tional science policy? 



Mr. Gavin. Well, it's hard to generalize there, because industry 

 in this country varies so widely. Some have future horizons that 

 are very close, and others that are really quite distant. In our par- 

 ticular business, new programs appear to be taking 10 to 12 years 

 to reach fruition. That is a lot further than the next quarter. I 

 think that there are many other industries in this country perhaps 

 that involve less complex products where the future is much closer, 

 and I think that it is very hard to generalize about policy planning 

 for American industry. I am not an expert in it, but I think it is a 

 big, very complex problem. 



Mr. Packard. I don't wish to take longer than my 5 minutes, Mr. 

 Chairman, but in the past we have discussed concerns about the 

 fact that we have been outpaced by other countries — Japan is a sig- 

 nificant example — in terms of applying much of the technology 

 that comes out of our pure science programs. It may be that we are 

 not doing or not involving the private sector in the scientific re- 

 search areas as much as we could and should, and therefore we are 

 not picking up the application of a lot of the information that we 

 gather to where it becomes a marketable product. We are being, I 

 guess, outmarketed by other countries in these applied areas. 



Mr. Gavin. Well, there is no question but that we are in a global 

 economy. I would not want to be thought to be passing the buck. 

 Frankly, I think that American industry can look to itself first 

 with regard to being competitive. I think that there is a lot to be 

 done right at home in a lot of companies to be more competitive. I 

 may not make too many friends amongst my contemporaries by 

 saying that, but the fact is that it can be done. 



Mr. Packard. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 



Mr. FuQUA. Mr. Lujan. 



Mr. Lujan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 



You know, I am not sure what international cooperation means, 

 other than keep going in the direction of big machines. The Com- 

 mittee on International Cooperation in Magnetic Fusion Energy, it 

 seems like all of the discussion is weighted towards Tokamak, and 

 although the contention is that we don't really have a fusion pro- 

 gram in this country, the fact of the matter is that we do. And that 

 is a concentration on big machines. Putting aside the alternative 

 concepts, I had occasion on two or three times, I guess, to try to 

 take a shot of the dice, I guess, on some alternative concept and see 

 if it works. 



