249 



Mr. Packard. Do you believe that the trend is moving toward 

 international cooperative efforts? 



Dr. McTague. It is inevitable. It is inevitable both because large- 

 scale facilities are becoming more expensive as a fraction of gross 

 national product, for example, than in the past. 



But more important than the economic issue, I think, is the op- 

 portunity for distributing the benefits of technology throughout the 

 world as a two-way street, and by increasing technological capabili- 

 ties in other countries, we then open up new markets for ourselves 

 and, I think, help stabilize the world situation. 



Mr. Packard. Your comments and your illustration of mainland 

 China, I think, verify what you have just said. Do you see that kind 

 of example expanding into the Soviet bloc countries in the future 

 and a possible same type of response in terms of improving rela- 

 tionships between our country and theirs? 



Dr. McTague. I think, in particular, when one talks about the 

 Soviet Union and certain other Eastern European countries, we 

 have to make absolutely certain that our scientific and technologi- 

 cal efforts act in consonance with our other foreign policy objec- 

 tives. 



At the proper time, and as programs are of mutual benefit, I be- 

 lieve, indeed, science and technology can play an important role. It 

 is important that we do this at the time that the President deter- 

 mines, and in consonance with, other foreign policy objectives. 



Mr. Packard. Well, in view of those comments, were there any 

 different circumstances? Was the environment different with Red 

 China than it is with other Eastern bloc countries? And if so, in 

 order to bring about what you have already used as an illustration 

 of developing closer ties and better relationships through the coop- 

 erative efforts of science and technology, do you see a different sce- 

 nario there than you presently see with the rest of the Eastern 

 Bloc countries? 



Dr. McTague. I think there are two substantial differences, one 

 of which is external, and the other, internal to those countries. 



The Soviet bloc has a clearly expansionist policy right now — Af- 

 ghanistan is an example — as opposed to the internal policies where 

 it is clear that the People's Republic of China has decided to make 

 a very major effort to utilize science and technology to modernize 

 its nation, to increase its industrial base, to increase the standard 

 of living of its people, to open its markets with the West. 



I don't see signs of similar things happening in the Soviet Union. 

 Were that time to come about, and were the external circum- 

 stances to change, I think we would greatly enjoy further coopera- 

 tion with the Soviet Union. 



Mr. Packard. One last question, Mr. Chairman, if I may. Do you 

 think we can overdo the international cooperation? Do you think 

 there is a limit beyond which we ought to be more cautious? 



Dr. McTague. It is not a panacea, and it shouldn't be a give- 

 away. We should all make sure that things are of mutual benefit, 

 and science cooperation with other nations should be as related to 

 our own internal scientific goals. 



Mr. Packard. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 



Mr. FuQUA. Mr. Lujan. 



Mr. Lujan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 



