250 



Just one question. If it is inevitable, as you say, that research 

 moves into the international field — and I agree with you that it is 

 inevitable — are we then at a point where we should establish those 

 mechanisms by which we go into international cooperation; for ex- 

 ample, the European Space Agency, with all of the nations partici- 

 pating? One ingredient to that is that it should be in pursuit of 

 national goals. As a matter of fact, ESA does operate on that basis. 

 The French put more money into Ariane; the Germans put more 

 money into the Space Station, because that meets their national 

 goals. 



I was thinking that even perhaps through — ^just a first thought — 

 through the International Atomic Energy Agency or through the 

 International Energy Agency, do the research in fusion, gas-cooled 

 reactors, waste disposal, all of those things that we are involved in. 

 Would it help, or do you think the time has come, perhaps, that we 

 set up those mechanisms; and, being that you are from OSTP, 

 using OSTP as the lead agency to establish those mechanisms, and 

 everybody would go with their projects to OSTP and see if we move 

 them into the international field? 



Dr. McTague. I think we should make use of existing interna- 

 tional agencies where appropriate. I don't believe we should try to 

 promote the idea of a single, centralized international science coop- 

 erative agency. 



I think the one lesson that I have learned in my time in Wash- 

 ington is to fear the growth of bureaucracy. I think it is important 

 that, at the very highest levels in various countries, there be some 

 single center where one can turn for policy direction and for policy 

 discussion, and I believe that this science ministerial meeting 

 which we hope will take place later this year may provide a good 

 informal beginning to such a process. 



We presently do utilize many different types of approaches; for 

 example, the Economic Summit Working Groups, cooperation with 

 IAEA, cooperation through many international science unions. I 

 don't believe a single mechanism would work well. 



The present system is not perfect, but it offers the flexibility that 

 we may be able to make further progress. I think, in particular, 

 what is occurring nowadays in almost every country is the realiza- 

 tion that science and technology in general, and in particular inter- 

 national cooperation, is important. Addressing that at the very 

 highest levels is a good beginning, and then talking between peo- 

 ples at these very highest levels, I think, will help set mutually 

 beneficial policies. 



Mr. LuJAN. I was thinking more in terms of something like ESA, 

 which works very well. They have made a commitment in space re- 

 search, and they have their members, and they have their regular 

 meetings and what is eligible for it. 



We are at a disadvantage in that we don't have someone like a 

 science minister, period, that directs research. That is why I 

 thought OSTP could very well evaluate those things that go in 

 there. I wasn't thinking in terms of OSTP making all of the ar- 

 rangements. NASA would be part of a worldwide ESA-type thing; 

 Department of Energy would be the one involved with the world- 

 wide nuclear research; NIH, or HHS, or one of those, in health re- 

 search. 



