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Mr. Packard. OK. Well, I am not going to recalculate here. But 

 approximately how much of our total foreign aid budget goes to 

 foreign countries in terms of scientific programs? 



Mr. Horner. Well, there is a certain difficulty, I suppose, in fig- 

 uring out what one ought to include and what one ought not to in- 

 clude. For example, the Agency for International Development con- 

 ducts programs to develop scientific and technical capacity in other 

 countries. I don't know offhand how one would establish an abso- 

 lute dollar amount. 



Mr. Packard. Compared to social aid and economic aid and mili- 

 tary aid, it would be perhaps a very small amount? 



Mr. Horner. I should think so. 



Mr. Packard. Yes, I would think so, also. 



Is there an advantage of trying to find and seeking ways to in- 

 crease — I think we are talking about now giving a fish compared to 

 teaching people to fish, that concept. Is there something more that 

 we can do that would enhance actually building the infrastructure 

 of a country where they can become more self-sufficient in contrast 

 to just simply giving them medicine and food and economic aid? 



Mr. Horner. Well, I think that is quite right, and I think that is 

 one of the things that we have tried to do over the years in various 

 programs in efforts to develop capacities in these countries. 



But I think we need to recognize that sometimes, in some of 

 these countries, the absorptive capacity, if I may use that term, is 

 limited, and that, secondly, the single most important thing in the 

 advancement of various countries is the policies which they, them- 

 selves, decide to pursue. 



We cannot really be a substitute for that. We have an extraordi- 

 nary educational system, extraordinary university system, which is 

 the most open in the world and which is available to people. We 

 have programs of training of various different sorts. But, in the 

 final analysis, perhaps the most important limiting factor is not so 

 much what we contribute to it but what other countries' national 

 policies are in this area. 



Mr. Packard. I would hope, however — and I agree that there are 

 some limiting factors — that perhaps we can rethink our foreign aid 

 policy in terms of where we can do those people the most good. 

 And often we do not. We find the easy and the bureaucratic way is 

 to simply transfer funds and leave it up to them to determine the 

 distribution and how to handle it. 



Perhaps we can encourage policies and ways of developing their 

 educational system, developing their scientific approach, and 

 maybe inviting some of their students, through assistance pro- 

 grams, like we do our own students, to come and maybe be trained 

 in our own universities, which are capable of sending them back to 

 their countries. And I am sure we are doing some of that; I am just 

 curious to know if, in your judgment, we are doing as much as we 

 ought to do in terms of the use of our dollars, our foreign aid dol- 

 lars. 



Mr. Horner. Well, once again, I think it is difficult to say what 

 is more or less. For example, in some of the coiHitries that I have 

 mentioned — we have now at least 10,000 students from China who 

 are studying here. We have from time to time had enormous num- 

 bers of students from various developing countries. Sometimes the 



