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DISCUSSION 



Mr. FuQUA. Thank you, Dr. Clarke. 



In discussing some of the problems with previous fusion coopera- 

 tive agreements, you indicated that there was not the political or 

 financial support. Am I paraphrasing that correctly? 



Dr. Clarke. Well, I was emphasizing more the political support 

 than the financial. I think financial support follows. 



Mr. FuQUA. That is true. Is that one of the problems we face 

 with all international cooperation, or is it just related to fusion? Is 

 there something in fusion that lends itself particularly to interna- 

 tional cooperation, and therefore we should try to secure the politi- 

 cal support? 



Dr. Clarke. The reason that I tried to emphasize this particular 

 point was that I do feel it has general applicability. It really flows 

 from human nature. People have a desire to do things themselves 

 if possible, and unless there is some pressure, either a technical 

 pressure because they cannot accomplish their goals themselves or 

 a general sense that it would be better done cooperatively, it is 

 very difficult to get these cooperations started. 



Mr. FuQUA. When we are in severe budget constraints, as we are 

 now— of course, since I have been in Congress, I have never seen a 

 time where we had ample funds— it is always a problem, and prob- 

 ably more acute today than it has been in previous years. 



But when we are looking at big science— and fusion is certainly 

 one of those— as we get into the more expensive programs of 

 fusion, is it in everyone's benefit to try to share some of this 

 burden? I doubt that the Japanese or the European Community 

 has an excess of funds sitting around burning their pockets that 

 they want to spend by themselves, particularly if there is somebody 

 that they can cooperate with and share in some of the basic re- 

 search activities that have the potential of benefiting all of man- 

 kind. 



Dr. Clarke. I think what you say is quite true, and I think it is 

 very clearly recognized at the political and the policy levels. The 

 problem that will arise, of course, is that the technical community, 

 being more concerned with getting their technical job done, is not 

 as sensitive to the constraints of budget as policy level leaders are. 

 Mr. FuQUA. I have observed that over the years. [Laughter.] 

 Dr. Clarke. This is why a firm and uniform commitment at the 

 policy level is important if only to translate the reality of these 

 budget constraints to the technical community. Only with that 

 kind of an atmosphere will people begin the hard job— and it does 

 involve personal sacrifice on the part of both institutions and indi- 

 viduals involved in these programs— to do the hard technical work 

 to come up with commonly agreed upon projects or collaboration. 

 Mr. Fuqua. In other words, what you are saying is, we should do 

 our homework more thoroughly than we have in the past before we 

 attempt to involve ourselves in these big projects internationally? 

 Dr. Clarke. Yes, sir, both at the political, policy, and technical 

 level. 



Mr. Fuqua. Now, do you see this as being detrimental to some of 

 our national laboratories? Is this something that means a zero to 



