350 



I didn't mean to get into that, but I was intrigued we are project- 

 ing 40, 50 years from now certain things. 



Mr. FuQUA. About four generations. 



Mr. Packard. When we see how far we have come in the last 50 

 years, you would think we could probably do most anything in the 

 establishment of JET and some of your other international projects 

 and programs in Europe. Have you felt or found that over the last 

 decade or so it has had an adverse or a complementary affect, or 

 has it improved or hurt your national laboratory programs? 



Dr. WusTER. We have had in some fields the unavoidable situa- 

 tion that if the information from research changes from national to 

 international facilities, that the national laboratories suffer, be- 

 cause nobody sees the necessity to finance third-class facilities 

 which are not for nothing when he can participate in a first-class 

 facility. 



However, one has to be very careful. When you take, for in- 

 stance, high energy physics, then it is true that except for Germa- 

 ny all member states of CERN have closed their own accelerator 

 facilities, high energy accelerator facilities, or transformed them 

 into nuclear physics facilities. 



But this has not changed the situation that expenditure in this 

 field in the large member states of CERN has remained approxi- 

 mately on the level of the budget contribution to CERN, so for 

 some time when I was at CERN in the seventies, we were able to 

 take this as a distinguishing criterion between the large and the 

 small member states. 



The large member states were those — and these were the large 

 ones — who spent as much at home — that is in their universities, in 

 their national laboratories, which they used partially as staging 

 posts for experiments in CERN or for creating heavy equipment for 

 use at CERN, and on their contributions to CERN while these 

 smaller member states, who were always somewhat problematic, 

 because they were complaining they were not getting enough out of 

 CERN, they were spending decidedly less in their own countries in 

 comparison to their CERN contribution. 



In that field, therefore, I would say that what you save money on 

 is the large device. What you do not save money on is on research 

 teams and their equipment. But you keep that under your own con- 

 trol. 



The situation in high energy physics is, of course, that those who 

 do that research are only in a minority, part directly of the staff of 

 the international organization, and it comes from that structure 

 that you have this situation. 



In fusion, it is different. The national laboratories in Europe 

 have in general not yet, I should say, suffered by the creation of 

 JET. In fact, the national laboratories in the larger member states 

 of the Community are at the moment all constructing smaller ex- 

 periments which in their specialization have the character of focus- 

 ing attention on the same subject where JET is the expert. 



How this will continue when we leave the scientific feasibility 

 stage to the technological stage is difficult to foresee. But when we 

 have problems that are not anymore called plasma physics, things 

 which are called either plasma engineering or technology prob- 

 lems, you need other people. That will be the real mover there. 



