351 



It depends very much on the field. The existence of an interna- 

 tional new entity may, but not necessarily must, change the char- 

 acter of the international institutes and laboratories. 



Both cases exist in practice in Europe. 



Mr. Packard. Doctor, is it true that as you internationalize pro- 

 grams and projects that it becomes more difficult than in the na- 

 tional laboratory programs to involve the private sector? Does 

 international cooperation tend to preclude involvement and coop- 

 eration and perhaps even financial assistance from your private 

 sector? 



And a second part to that question, Doctor, would be, does that 

 also affect the ability to commercialize the results of your pro- 

 grams both at the international and at the national laboratory 

 levels? 



Dr. WusTER. From my own experience in both fields, high energy 

 physics, and fusion research, I can only speak to collaboration be- 

 tween international laboratories and industries in the relation of 

 customer and supplier. This is the system which we have exclusive- 

 ly had in both organizations, CERN and JET. 



The relations between the international laboratory and indus- 

 tries in this respect is no different at all from what it would be in a 

 national organization of equal character. International organiza- 

 tions in this case have even, in my experience, not unimportant 

 cost advantages. International projects are in Europe considered by 

 many industries as prestige items, and some prices which we have 

 had, and which we have paid, are only applicable to me by the firm 

 will of somebody very high up in a big firm: We want to have our 

 name on that thing in a prominent place. So, in general, we have 

 had better prices at CERN and better prices at JET than in the 

 national laboratories. The collaboration with industries is not more 

 difficult in this international context than in the national context. 

 It takes time for some of us to get used— in the very complicated 

 situation in Europe— to get use to the fact that the law— that the 

 contractual ethics or contractual behavior in different countries 

 has different rules, and the game is not the same. But when you 

 have learned that lesson, in the end it doesn't matter too much. 



Mr. Packard. You believe that there is going to be a need to call 

 upon the private sector and industry to more and more assist and 

 get involved in the future of technology? 



Dr. WusTER. I believe that the problem is how do you distribute 

 the risk? I think that in fusion you have a good example when you 

 compare the United States and European situation on one side, and 

 the Japanese situation on the other side. 



In our case, and here I can speak in detail, we on the project 

 team are taking all risk and responsibilities. Anything which is 

 complicated and takes very different skills— we design, develop, 

 make project-type tests, with the help of industry, finding out in 

 that way how far we can go in entrusting these different parts to 

 industry in a way where it is absolutely competent in doing things. 

 We do not give development contracts to industry as a matter of 

 policy. This means that our team has to be competent in all fields 

 where such questions might arise. 



When you look at the situation in Japan, it is decidedly different. 

 JT-60, the Japanese experiment, has been built on the basis of per- 



