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formance specification by a team of scientists and engineers of a 

 group of firms. When you look at the prices you see, of course, that 

 in this case the budget has paid for the risk, which, of course, in- 

 dustry, which is meant to pay profits to shareholders, had to cover 

 somehow. But have solutions — in the end it depends on what is 

 your political aim. 



Do you do such a project to develop the abilities of your indus- 

 tries or to achieve a research end, a science end? I would say the 

 European system in stating the science aim tries to get there. The 

 Japanese aim seems to be at the same time the considerable devel- 

 opment of industrial capabilities. If an experiment of the JET or 

 JT-60 class is the right object for that, I would dare to express 

 doubts. Because when you see what you need in the way of a fusion 

 reactor, you can say it is all different from what we are using. We 

 use copper coils, the reactor will have superconducting coils. We 

 have practically no covering for nuclear risk. There you need all 

 the shielding, all the considerations which come in. A reactor is 

 quite different, I believe, and, therefore, I am not sure if industry 

 has learned much — would have learned in our case — much from 

 being responsible for building the JET device as one global item. 

 We kept control and kept the control of the costs at the same time. 

 It was the only way we knew. 



Mr. Packard. Thank you, sir. 



Mr. FuQUA. Mr. Lujan. 



Mr. Lujan. Thank you. 



Doctor, you make an interesting observation. You pay less for 

 the facility but more for the operation. As I understand, then, the 

 energy directed within the national laboratory is reduced, or the 

 thrust perhaps, or maybe the involvement perhaps is the word. 



Dr. WtrsTER. I must have expressed myself incorrectly. I did not 

 imply that we paid more for the operation. 



An international operation pays more for operation to its staff, 

 yes, but normally it gets something back for it in excellence. I 

 would insist that the average level of staff in the European inter- 

 national laboratory, which has an aim like JET has, or which has a 

 good program like CERN has, can stand comparison with any other 

 place in the world on excellence and that the payback, the higher 

 salaries, are handsomely rewarded by better achievements. 



Also, one has to say what is wrong, sir. We have a project where 

 in the end we shall have spent 50 percent of all the money in 1992, 

 roughly, will have gone into capital investment. Twenty-five per- 

 cent will have gone into materials necessary for operation, that is 

 for consumables and all that, and infrastructure, which we don't 

 provide ourselves but the national laboratory on the same side pro- 

 vide to us, we have to pay for that; and 25 percent will have gone 

 into salaries. 



Now, admittedly, if you had done it as a British project you prob- 

 ably would have saved a factor of two on those salaries, but you 

 wouldn't have had the same people and probably would have taken 

 more time and spent more in the end. 



So I would say the higher personnel costs for international orga- 

 nizations, which is a fact, is justified as long as they have a valued 

 program, and as long as they are project-oriented and really can 

 create something by having the money to do it. 



