353 



If you have, of course, an organization which is dead on its feet, 

 but cannot be gotten rid of, where 80 percent of the budget ends up 

 in staff, then the net effect of 2, 2.5, is scandal. 



The bad stories about international organizations come, of 

 course, from these cases. But as long as that is a vital and really 

 living organization with an aim, with a larger circle to draw your 

 staff resources on by insisting on excellence, you can get to be a 

 world leader. No problem. 



Mr. LuJAN. Europeans are very good at international projects 

 where we don't seem to be as good. We have some isolated exam- 

 ples, the Space Station, of course, being the big one, and then we 

 have one here and one there with individual laboratories. 



Our industry does a lot better than our Government does. Is it 

 good for us to be looking strongly at international organizations as 

 opposed to doing it by ourselves? 



Dr. WusTER. Which answer do you expect? Of course, I am posi- 

 tive about this, and I am positive about this because I see that the 

 difficulties in Europe for collaboration can be considered to be even 

 worse, because when you see the real problems, it is not that the 

 French and British had a 100 years war in the 14th century, which 

 is sometimes believed is still being fought, but it is much more, 

 that our different educational systems, our legal systems, our tradi- 

 tions, our way of living are so different. 



But you see you can make something out of these difficulties. 

 When you take a British engineer and a French engineer, you will 

 find if you give them the same problem they approach it totally dif- 

 ferently. Now, if you are able to weld together a crew to look at a 

 problem with both components, the pragmatism of the British engi- 

 neer and the logical method of the French engineer, and you see 

 that the pragmatic part is done by the British and the mathemati- 

 cal research by the Frenchman and not the other way around, you 

 have a better result than you would have had by having only Brit- 

 ish or only French engineers. So I am convinced that we with our 

 different systems get quite a bit out of international collaboration 

 also in that detail. 



It takes a constant effort. It is not something which you do once 

 and then it will roll on. I believe it is good. When you consider how 

 many people reached the United States just before the war who 

 were then collaborating in the most important scientific effort this 

 country had during the war, you have seen such international col- 

 laboration in its best form in this country. And you have seen how 

 a real aim in these things can bring people together in a wonderful 

 way. I wouldn't be afraid if there is a big brink between us of get- 

 ting the same situation of collaboration between different people. 

 In the end, they all come back— if they are convinced of what they 

 want to do, they will do it. 



Mr. FuQUA. Dr. Wiister, we thank you very much for joining us 

 today. It has been very enlightening, and we again thank you for 

 your warm hospitality when we were visiting the JET facilities last 

 fall. 



Thank you very much for being here. We look forward to coop- 

 eration. 



Dr. WiJSTER. Thank you, we, too. 



[Whereupon, at 9:25 a.m. the task force recessed, to reconvene on 

 July 9, 1985 at 9:30 a.m.] 



