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It is sort of like fishery management planning in a way. It is 

 looking at each particular problem with an open mind and with a 

 flexibility, a whole list of possible tools, and coming up with a solu- 

 tion. Don't impose across-the-board numbers, across-the-board solu- 

 tions, all fisheries, all areas. Let us get down to the nitty-gritty and 

 look at real problems, and I think we all agree on that. Obviously, 

 there are a lot of details, and we still have a lot more to discuss. 

 But that is our basic strategy. 



Mr. Saxton. In terms of collection of data and relying on the in- 

 dustry to be a major player in that collection, I think it is fair to 

 say that there are some weaknesses in the system or lack of a 

 system that currently exists. What, in your opinion, do we need to 

 do to ensure that we are getting accurate data to form the basis of 

 whatever plan we come up with? 



Mr. Gutting. I think one thing that needs to be done and I hope 

 will happen the next few weeks is the government should share its 

 data with us — the raw material. Let our skippers go over it and see 

 whether or not there are some glaring errors, things like reporting 

 a Steller sea lion in the Atlantic Ocean. Now, that is just wrong. 

 See whether we can verify it by giving us a chance to look at it. 

 The other thing that we feel strongly about is when you suspect 

 that there is a problem, the government should put some observers 

 on the vessels, and our organization has strongly urged that funds 

 be set aside so we can get observers out there to document the 

 problem, and then the third element is those observers coming 

 back and sitting down with interested parties and going over that 

 information. So it is a combination of things. The key element 

 though is an open communication between the government and the 

 interested parties. 



Mr. Saxton. Let me just follow up on the last sentence and that 

 is open communication. Is there a problem with communication? 

 Are you having problems currently getting access to data? 



Mr. Gutting. We have made requests, and they haven't been re- 

 sponded to. I don't want to say there is a problem. I just hope that 

 it is an instance of them having some difficulty bringing all the in- 

 formation together. We, obviously, have the Freedom of Informa- 

 tion Act that we can rely on. We hate to have to go through those 

 formal processes. What we really want to do is sit down with the 

 scientists and dialog. We don't really have an ongoing mechanism 

 to do this. 



Mr. Saxton. Well, NMFS has been relatively cooperative with 

 me and with my staff, and so if you are having problems getting 

 data, I hope that you will let us know and maybe we can help. Sec- 

 ondly, you mentioned something else that I thought was of interest, 

 and that had to do with observers. You are talking, obviously, 

 about an official observer? 



Mr. Gutting. Yes. 



Mr. Saxton. Someone from NMFS. Someone from 



Mr. Gutting. Or it could be under contract with the NMFS, such 

 as a university. Someone who is official, as it were. 



Mr. Saxton. I think that is a great idea, and one of the things 

 that we always have to deal with then is someone on the Appro- 

 priations Committee comes over and says, "Well, you have got this 

 wonderful idea. How are we going to pay for it?" Do you have any 



