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Ms. Foster. You ask such simple questions. Perhaps you would 

 like to answer, Dr. Hofman. 



Dr. Hofman. Actually, I would not like to answer that question, 

 but I will try. 



The direct answer to the question is, under the Marine Mammal 

 Protection Act, OSP determinations are to be made through formal 

 rulemaking basically at the request of somebody seeking a waiver 

 of the moratorium on taking. 



It goes to the burden question that I think Dr. Foster raised in 

 both, as I understand, her written testimony and certainly in her 

 oral testimony. 



Under the Act as presently written, if somebody wanted to take 

 a marine mammal, the OSP determination would have to be made 

 through a formal hearing. The way this has been done in the past, 

 in the cases where I know that it has been done, is in front of an 

 administrative law judge. 



Determinations have been made and general permits have been 

 issued to two fisheries, one is the Yellow Fin Tuna Purse Seine 

 Fishery in the eastern tropical Pacific and the other was the Japa- 

 nese Salmon Driftnet Fishery in the North Pacific. 



Mrs. Unsoeld. I am going to interrupt you because my time is 

 going to run out. 



What you are addressing is when there is a crisis stage and 

 somebody comes and asks you. But I want us to start looking at a 

 larger picture. 



In the Chairman's draft there is established a task force to deter- 

 mine the impact of marine mammals on the salmonids. But what 

 about the impact of marine mammals on the rest of the ecosystem? 

 For example, do we have any information on the relationship be- 

 tween healthy and expanding marine mammal populations on 

 those that are declining? 



At some point we have to get ahead of the problems. I am not 

 quite sure, we may already not be ahead, but that is what I would 

 like to have you address, Dr. Foster. 



Ms. Foster. First, we were really pleased to see this addition in 

 this bill, to set up the pinniped task force. Because I think that we 

 can lump all these concerns together and we can say we really do 

 need to take a look at the pinniped situation because it is not 

 simple. We are not going to fix that situation by simply looking at, 

 for example, pinnipeds and salmon in isolation. As you say, we 

 have to look at the system. We have to look at all aspects of it. 



So, we think that we could also address the OSP question with 

 regard to California sea lions. 



Mrs. Unsoeld. It seems to me that I would certainly never want 

 to suggest that the population of seals and sea lions is the reason 

 for the decline in salmon population. However, it certainly, in my 

 view, complicates the recovery. 



So you have two protected species interacting, and we have to 

 start looking at the bigger picture. 



I would submit that you all should — maybe we are going to have 

 to rig this, but you all voluntarily should come up with an OSP. 

 And that not forthcoming, we will try to mandate it. But it would 

 be better if you voluntarily undertook it. 



Dr. Hofman. Yes. May I add several points? 



