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will have to be done to streamline our decision making process for 

 the management of salmon populations. When we visited with the 

 tribal council yesterday — I forgot who it was — someone said that 

 even if you stopped all of the harvest totally, the problem would 

 continue, so we know that addressing only one of the "H's" of the 

 four "H's" we have talked about would not solve oue problems. 



However, if we were to choose or pick and choose between the 

 four "H's", which one would give us the most immediate short- 

 term relief, if any? 



I will put that to anybody on the panel. 



Mr. Schmitten? 



Mr. Schmitten. Mr. Manton, without a doubt I think the com- 

 munity at large has all reached an agreement that in the neighbor- 

 hood of 80 to 90 percent of juvenile salmonids are affected, killed 

 by a hydropower system, so that is where the largest effect occurs. 

 Also it is the most difficult to get at because any change that 

 would occur would require a retrofitting of the dams, you are talk- 

 ing several years of doing that. 



In some cases we lack the science really to give us direction, to 

 say it is right to do that, so the common denominator becomes 

 water, and this year for the first time we went after water both for 

 summer and spring periods; and in the short-term I think that our 

 only answer is going to be water. Certainly hydropower has the 

 most prominent effect on fish. 



Mr. Manton. Anybody else want to comment on that? 



Mr. Turner? 



Mr. Turner. My comment is that, frankly, I think while we need 

 to make short-term gains, we are looking toward a long-term solu- 

 tion, and I would hate to mask the problem with short-term gains. 

 Frankly, I think we need to caution all of ourselves not to focus 

 solely on the Columbia River or listed species, but this problem 

 pervades watersheds up and down the coast. Many of these stocks 

 have been petitioned. 



Most of them have not been petitioned, but they are depressed 

 and they need to be recovered, and they command our attention in 

 order to prevent the kinds of crises that we see now in the Colum- 

 bia River or the Sacramento. 



Mr. Manton. Is the biggest culprit the Federal ownership of land 

 or private ownership? 



Mr. Plenert. I don't think you can separate the two. You can't 

 point to any particular culprit. 



I think you have to look at the landscape as it is being used. The 

 fish don't have any idea when they enter a private or a State or 

 tribal land or federally-owned or anything like that, so it is a com- 

 bination of looking at the entire system that has to take place, and 

 I think Mr. Turner here mentioned it very well. It is not just the 

 Columbia system. There is other tributaries that don't have any 

 dams on them and they still don't have any runs. So you have to 

 look at the holistic approach up and down the coast, the entire 

 system. 



Mr. Manton. The courts have recently been awarding damages, 

 if you will, where the ownership of land or the use of land is cur- 

 tailed, a so-called taking, oftentimes for good reason, environmen- 

 tal and other public interest reasons. Do we foresee that if we are, 



