51 



Mr. Looney. Well, it is obvious — I believe at the last hearing 

 Congresswoman Cantwell polled the councils themselves and to 

 date since the passage of the Act the question was what have you 

 done to deal with conflicts of interest, and my recollection of 

 having read that record was that there was only three councils 

 that responded affirmatively that they had done something; with 

 no addition to exactly what it was that they had done. And I am in 

 no position to pass judgment on the merits of those three that were 

 done. 



As this act is reauthorized, I think really what we are talking 

 about when we discuss the issue of the fishery management council 

 system, we are not talking about the Act and the regulatory proc- 

 ess, I think we are talking about, at least in my mind, very simply 

 on that council, do fishermen who have active interests sit and 

 make decisions or do those same people participate only by giving 

 testimony to that body? 



No one, including myself, is advocating that the input from in- 

 dustry be in any way discouraged. In fact, I think if you read our 

 written testimony we are advocating just the second. My position 

 very simply is those with economic direct interests or, for that 

 matter, indirect interests belong where I am sitting today, in front 

 of the panel, giving their opinion, not sitting up there making the 

 decision. 



Mrs. Unsoeld. Thank you. We could explore that a lot more, but 

 I really do appreciate the comments. 



On bycatch, it is a problem. How can it best be addressed? 



Is it possible to do it through the Act? 



Can councils do it? 



Are we going to need to do something else? 



I don't know who wants to jump into that, but go ahead. 



Mr. Easley. Mr. Chairman, Congresswoman Unsoeld, I think it 

 should be dealt with at a council level really because each fishery 

 is different and its bycatch problems that it has are different. They 

 aren't the same from fishery to fishery. 



I participated in several fisheries over my lifetime, and none of 

 them were the same, although they all had bycatch, in my opinion. 

 And sometimes it is regulatory, sometimes it is market-driven, 

 sometimes it is size-driven, and you need to do it on a fishery-by- 

 fishery basis, and I think it has to be done at the council level. 



Mrs. Unsoeld. Mr. Looney. 



Mr. Looney. On bycatch, one thing we need is a clear definition 

 of what is bycatch. There is a difference between waste in fishery 

 and bycatch. Technically, at least to my knowledge in the North 

 Pacific, when you are talking bycatch issues, you are really talking 

 allocation issues. Everything is being managed within the ABC and 

 the TAC. 



It is a question out of that total allowable catch how much is 

 dedicated to a bycatch, to bycatch issues and how much to a direct- 

 ed fishery. Before any significant progress can be made on that 

 issue, I think we must have clear definitions of what those are and 

 of what we mean when we say "bycatch", because not everybody is 

 thinking the same thing. 



Mrs. Unsoeld. Good point. 



