25 



Ms. FURSE. Mr. Meacham? 



Mr. Meacham. Yes. Thank you. 



I think the biggest problem is with El Nino conditions in the 

 ocean, multiple years of drought conditions in the rivers, coupled 

 with serious, serious habitat degradation problems, including 

 hydro-development as well as other things. 



I would have to say that, technically, the Canadians are living 

 within the limits that we negotiated for those fisheries. But cer- 

 tainly they are not taking conservation needs to heart at this point. 



But technically, they are living within the numerical constraints. 

 If we didn't have El Nino, if we didn't have the drought years, had 

 reasonable fish production — habitat is a little more difficult to ad- 

 dress — I don't think we would be here today. 



Ms. FuRSE. But isn't it true that the Eraser River runs are ex- 

 tremely strong because of the conservation, and then you have no 

 dams on those rivers, is my understanding, at least main-stem 

 dams. 



Mr. Meacham. I would agree with that, to the extent I under- 

 stand Eraser, yes. 



Ms. FuRSE. May I ask one more question, Madam Chair. How do 

 the Canadians come up with their position, their full commis- 

 sioners, do they also have to reach consensus and then come for- 

 ward with a Canadian position? Does anybody know how they do 

 that? 



Mr. James. I believe that from what I can understand of the sys- 

 tem that they have, it is a mirror image of what we have. Their 

 Federal commissioner has absolute authority over the position that 

 goes forward and their commissioners are advisory, whereas ours 

 is 



Ms. FuRSE. It is the reverse of what we have. 



Mr. James. Ours is the reverse of that. 



Could I make a comment on the Eraser? 



As much as we are on the downside of nature in some of our ac- 

 tions, they are on the upswing of nature in some of their actions. 

 So everything that they have done and the benefits they are reap- 

 ing aren't totally man-made, and they are at extreme heights of 

 Eraser which could take a dive also due to impacts of the switching 

 of El Nino and the changing of what is happening in ocean sur- 

 vival. 



So what we see and the impacts of the levels of our fisheries at 

 this time shouldn't be locked at the norm, nor what we see out of 

 the Eraser should be looked at as the norm, and a judgment being 

 made that while they are doing everything really well, and we are 

 doing everything really poorly, that is not, I believe, the case. 



Ms. Eurse. Thank you. 



Mrs. Unsoeld. Mr. Kingston, do you have questions? 



Mr. Kingston. Thank you. Madam Chair. 



Dr. Matlock, as we speak, the Canadian Government has taken 

 the captains of two American fishing vessels to court for fishing in 

 waters allegedly under their jurisdiction. Are you familiar with 

 that? 



Dr. Matlock. Yes, sir. 



Mr. Kingston. As you know, the Magnuson Act in Section 204 

 requires the Secretary of State to embargo fish and fish products 



