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determine liability — establish a trail back to the vessel, proving 

 that it actually came from the vessel and not somebody disposing 

 of it ashore, then we would submit a case and pursue a civil penal- 

 ty. I would not see one of these cases going criminal with that little 

 evidence. 



But, yes, and we too, along with EPA have put together several 

 groups that are working in partnership to bring everybody's work 

 to the table. We want to determine what each group is doing, if 

 there are any holes and whether some of our work is overlapping 

 with what others are doing. The next meeting of that particular co- 

 ordinating group is going to be 19 May. I think the issue of marine 

 debris on beaches is one of the things this group has to address. 



Mr. Tauzin. Can I make a suggestion for you at that meeting? 



Admiral Henn. Yes, sir. 



Mr. Tauzin. It seems to me that the case Al brought to us today 

 is a good teacher. We can learn some lessons from it. The first 

 thing that happened after his report and his persistent efforts to 

 force the agencies to look at this case was that when it got national 

 publicity, four other witnesses came forward — four of the witnesses 

 who helped make that case. I take it without those four witnesses, 

 it would never have been as strong a case. There may not have 

 been the plea bargain. There may not have been the conviction. 



It is quite possible that with some real cooperative efforts be- 

 tween those of you working beach cleanups and providing that data 

 information with the data that does come forward and the contacts 

 with the possible violator, it may be possible to find witnesses who 

 will come forward and say, "Yes. I saw that. I saw the trash being 

 thrown overboard. I know where it came from. I can tell you. I was 

 on that cruise. I was on that work detail" — whatever it may be. 



It seems to me that if we are going to encourage citizens like Al 

 to be real players that we have to be equally good players in the 

 exercise of stopping violators, and I would encourage you maybe to 

 think about how the data is not just useful for statistical purposes 

 but may be useful for better enforcement of the process. Otherwise, 

 the good information you get from citizens who walk the beaches 

 and clean them up in voluntary details or those who report inci- 

 dents at sea are not going to succeed. It took publicity to get those 

 four witnesses to come forward. Maybe we can find another way 

 without making a national case out of every incident to get good 

 witnesses to come forward and put a stop to some of this business. I 

 yield to my ranking member, Mr. Coble, for questions. 



Mr. Coble. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Admiral Henn and Ms. 

 Schrader, I apologize to each of you. I had to dart out to another 

 meeting so I missed your testimony, but I am familiar with your 

 statements. Admiral, I believe I am correct when I say that the 

 Coast Guard and the Navy on 1 January 1994 must at that point 

 dump no plastics in the ocean. 



Admiral Henn. That is correct, sir. 



Mr. Coble. Have you all started your compliance measures at 

 this time? 



Admiral Henn. Yes, sir, we have on Coast Guard cutters, and I 

 know the Navy has. They have a very active program. But on 

 Coast Guard cutters, we are putting compactors aboard, and we are 



