66 



Mr. Vento. Mr. Leonard, in most recent years, the Forest Serv- 

 ice and the BLM, and this is a question in turn to Mr. Penfold, has 

 basically been required to adjust its land management plans for en- 

 dangered species or for listed or threatened species. 



What has the impact of that been, for instance, on forest plans 

 as they affect watersheds, for instance? I know under the habitat 

 conservation area plan by Dr. Thomas, that was really focused on 

 the owl. What has been the effect of that on these other types of 

 species that are either — we are talking about prelisting activities 

 here mostly. Everyone is talking about that today. 



Mr. Leonard. Certainly, as a result of the northern spotted owl 

 measures, progressively increasing measures to protect the owl, we 

 have reduced the level of activities on those forests, particularly 

 timber harvesting. And so to the extent there is an impact that is 

 directly associated with timber harvesting, there has been a major 

 reduction in the impacts over the last several years. 



While the harvest levels have been held up a little bit by the vol- 

 umes of timber under contract, they have dropped substantially 

 and so the impacts have been less. 



Now, because we have an evolving process to look at what we 

 need to do for the owl, and now we are looking at the murrelet and 

 moving very much towards an ecosystem approach, our forest plans 

 have not kept up with that process. It doesn't make sense to revise 

 a plan with a 



Mr. Vento. Let me interrupt. I guess the point is how much cor- 

 relation is there? You have started on the owl, now you are on the 

 murrelet. You have these, I guess they are also indicator species 

 or keystone species, as they say. But I mean the effect has been — 

 there is an absolute correlation, in other words. 



Mr, Leonard. Yes. 



Mr. Vento, There is not or there 



Mr. Leonard. There is a direct correlation between the level of 

 activities we are carrying on out there and the areas of land that 

 we set aside to meet the requirements of various species. 



Mr, Vento. Mr. Penfold. 



Mr, Penfold. I absolutely agree with that. It requires more miti- 

 gation measures on grazing activities, reduced timber harvest, 

 much stronger mitigation measures relative to timber harvest and 

 it causes most of our plans that are not based on an ecosystem ap- 

 proach to be out of date. 



Mr. Vento. Of the other agencies, Mr. Edwards and Dr. Tillman, 

 NOAA and Fish and Wildlife Service have been involved in these 

 new planned developments, then, with an eye towards an eco- 

 system approach or have they specifically, by law, been limited in 

 a sense? Especially Mr. Edwards, to the owl or to the murrelet. 



Mr. Edwards. Mr, Chairman, it is my understanding that in 

 many of those, the Service has been involved in the planning proc- 

 ess, I can't give you specifics, but I don't feel that we have been 

 excluded from the process, 



Mr. Leonard. Mr. Chairman, if I could add? 



Mr. Vento, Certainly. 



Mr. Leonard. Congressman Dicks reflected his conversations 

 with the President and Vice President and his assurance that there 



