71 



Mr. Hansen. Thank you. I appreciate that. I wasn't trying to pin 

 you down. I was just saying I sometimes look at different agencies, 

 in the way they interpret the law, and it is sometimes different 

 than the way it was written. 



In the States' legislative bodies they have something called the 

 legislative intent. And when I was Speaker of the Utah House, I 

 got so tired of being sued. I was sued every day because that is who 

 you sue on a law. We would go over there and the court would say, 

 what did you intend, because it is being interpreted differently by 

 the regulatory agency. 



Around here, we do report language, which is supposed to say 

 this is what we mean by this. It probably is pretty meaningless — 

 I don't mean that the way it was said — but whenever I hear some- 

 one say I will follow the law, I can understand that. But beyond 

 that, I get a little confused about the way you folks interpret it. 



Mr. Penfold. And I have to admit we have had some people 

 challenge us on how we have interpreted the law, too. 



Mr. Hansen. Sure. 



Mr. Leonard, would you like to respond to my comment? I asked 

 Mr. Edwards about the comment of what Congressman Dicks said 

 before he left about the ecosystem rather than the listing one by 



one. 



Mr. Leonard. We think definitely the only way to successfully 

 maintain species is to deal with them on an ecosystem basis. In 

 fact, if you look at the preamble of the Endangered Species Act, the 

 authors felt that same way, too. It is when you get into the details 

 of the thing you begin to get away from that general concept and 

 get into the species-by-species, I think. That is the only way you 

 can deal with most of these species. 



And, in particular, the ones that we have been talking about 

 here recently — the marbled murrelet, owls and things — those sim- 

 ply are a function of the health of the entire ecosystem and the 

 structures that are there. 



You have some other situations, for example, down in the San 

 Bernardino Mountains, near your district, Mr. Calvert, where we 

 have got some plants that grow almost exclusively at that point on 

 limestone formations. And those limestone formations are mining 

 claims being developed because they are a particular type of lime- 

 stone. 



Well, you get away from an ecosystem question there when you 

 get to a species, particularly a plant that has just a narrow require- 

 ment, that it is found on one side of one mountain in one location. 

 So I think we are still going to have some situations like that, but 

 of the species that have been of interest and the ones that truly 

 impact the economies of the area, there I think you truly do have 

 to deal with it on an ecosystems basis. 



Mr. Hansen. The statements made by the three of you are very 

 progressive and you make an awful lot of sense. I hope I can quote 

 all three of you when we do the reauthorization of the act. 



Mr. Vento. New category of endangered ecosystems. Hansen will 

 propose. 



Mr. Hansen. I don't want to do away with these things. They are 

 all part and parcel of the things we do and I would compliment you 



