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Mr. Calvert. The point I think I am attempting to make is that 

 certainly certain commercial interests, the mining interests, the 

 timber interests, the grazing activities that take place have had an 

 effect. I think we know that from the testimony. But also the 

 drought has had a significant effect, I believe, in the populations 

 of salmon, and also predatory fish and the advent of marine mam- 

 mals, which have had a dramatic increase in population over the 

 past several years. 



And so when we move forward on this, I would hope that we are 

 not too anxious to recognize the importance of the other interests 

 that are involved in the Pacific Northwest. 



And with that, Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. 



Mr. Vento. You still have time. I was going to say, sometimes 

 ecologists have referred to the factor that is key, in terms of a pop- 

 ulation, as a limiting factor, and they look at that as being a 

 threshold issue, and that there are certain background events — en- 

 vironment — that are within the range of weather and phenomenon. 



Clearly, in this case, I think the issue of having 100 years of doc- 

 umentation is difficult. In fact, I think I will probably suggest they 

 would need a lot more money if we are going to document and keep 

 all the data records. But I think looking at the question Mr. Cal- 

 vert asks, is really a question I anticipated in trying to bring out 

 the fact there is not enough research, and there is not the 100 

 years of information we probably, or 200 years of information, we 

 would like on salmon populations, so we have to operate on the in- 

 formation we have. And, hopefully, we will come to a policy that 

 has balance in that sense. 



But I think the key here is that if the scientists here, or others, 

 could just state for us what the limiting factors are with regard to 

 salmon populations that are key, and if it is weather, if it is 

 drought, you know, and so forth, then I think we have to know. If 

 it is predatory species, if it is the temperatures of the streams due 

 to low water flow and so forth, and/or to the surrounding, the lack 

 of benthic organisms, the midges, the mayflies, and so forth, the 

 caddis flies and things they feed on. 



So I think we have to know that in order to be able to have a 

 halfway intelligent policy — the best policy — in terms of law. 



Mr. Leonard. Mr. Chairman, if I could. Dr. Sedell, pointed out 

 to me that the nature of the degradation on some of the streams 

 on the public lands probably has made these streams more vulner- 

 able to the drought circumstances. Because as the comparison of 

 the measurements made in the 1930s and 1940s to recent meas- 

 ures have shown the pools are fewer and they are smaller and they 

 are shallower. 



And so that when you have less flow through them during a 

 drought period, the tendency to warm up and go past critical tem- 

 peratures is going to be greater. So that as you have had this deg- 

 radation, your ability to withstand the normal cycle of droughts 

 has been reduced. 



Mr. Vento. Other limiting factors? I guess Dr. Tillman wants a 

 chance to make a comment. 



Mr. Tillman. Yes, sir, just to respond to one point about the im- 

 pact of the drought. I want to raise the fact that the American 

 Fisheries Society was very concerned about the plight of these 



