85 



ment in response to what we are actually seeing unfold in terms 

 of improvement of watersheds or deterioration of that sort of thing. 



I think that is something, like Jim mentioned, that we have rec- 

 ognized that we really have got to pick up on. 



Mr. Vento. We could go on, I know. 



Mr. Leonard. Mr. Chairman, Dr. Swanson would like to 



Dr. Swanson. From the standpoint of learning what is working 

 and what is not and cost effectiveness, I think that if any restora- 

 tion project is funded that there should be a specific commitment 

 to monitoring built into that. 



In the Pacific Rivers Council proposal, for example, about 15 per- 

 cent investment is directed that way. 



Mr. Vento. It occurs to me that it is important because it is 

 something that can easily be excluded. 



And, if you get all the agencies cooperating so that there is a 

 commonality and maybe even other private cooperators and the 

 states, I think that it really can help in terms of reducing it and 

 make certain that, as you say, you are taking an option that limits 

 certain harvests, that does a number of other things, that is not an 

 easy step to take. And you want to be certain that you are accom- 

 plishing what is intended in terms of the land management poli- 

 cies. So the monitoring, really, is the accountability factor and to 

 keep it on course in terms of achieving what we are doing. 



I think that this discussion about the ecosystems is all very in- 

 teresting in terms of total ecosystems. But so far I think we 

 thought we were smart enough to solve this with rifle shots instead 

 of classifying entire ecosystem, which is a demonstration we don't 

 know about some of the underlies problems of the specific species 

 to be able to do it without embracing a broader range of conditions 

 in the accomplishment of preservation of biodiversity. 



I could go on with a lot of questions; but, as you know, gentle- 

 men, I have a long list of witnesses. But I do, very much, as I said, 

 appreciate the efforts that you have made and that you will be 

 making. And we look forward to benefitting from your input as we 

 try and craft this difficult policy in the year ahead. 



Thank you very much. Thank you. 



Mr. Vento. We are going to change groups here. The second 

 panel has probably been waiting, and the third panel is waiting. 

 We have Mr. Bob Doppelt, the Director of the Pacific Rivers Coun- 

 cil, Eugene Oregon; and Dr. Chris Frissell, Oak Creek Laboratory, 

 Oregon State University, Corwallis, Oregon; and Mr. Pat Higgins, 

 the Northwest Chapter of the American Fisheries Society and Pa- 

 cific Watershed Associates, Humboldt, California; and, finally, on 

 this panel, Dr. J. F. Palmisano, Oregon State University, Corwallis, 

 Oregon. 



