195 



plans that are quantitatively based, that do have quantitative 

 measures, so that they can have a very real assessment of what ef- 

 fects management in the watershed have on the aquatic habitats. 

 That is something that the new Secretary can make a strong pitch 

 on and the Congress can demand accountability on the ground. 



I think there is a growing urge for that inside of the agency. And 

 it is simply a matter of articulating the national significance of 

 that by the administration, with the support of the Congress. That 

 would help to get us there. 



Bob has identified some very important elements of the legisla- 

 tive strategy, but there is a lot that the Federal land managers can 

 do at the same time that is being developed. 



Mr. DeFazio. Ok^y. 



Dr. Ice. 



Dr. Ice. I would like to comment on the discussion with private 

 companies having an incentive to degrade stream systems. 



Mr. DeFazio. We ought to conduct these as planned debates in 

 the future. You are giving me interesting ideas here. 



Go ahead. 



Dr. Ice. Excellent examples of attempts of the industry to cooper- 

 ate in the fisheries program that was jointly signed between the 

 Oregon Forest Industry Council, the Oregon Department of Forest, 

 and the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife, where land- 

 owners sit down with the Oregon Fish and Wildlife at the begin- 

 ning of the year and show where they are going to be operating. 

 They are operating their equipment and manpower and resources, 

 including logs and rocks, to provide stream enhancement activities. 

 And 100 projects have been put in place as a result of those efforts, 

 and those will be continuing each year. 



So it is a demonstration that the industry has a commitment to 

 work to try to solve these problems. Every company that I know 

 of is concerned about their environmental image. They want to be 

 recognized as being environmentally friendly. And part of that is 

 forest management operations, and they are determined to have 

 good practices. 



Mr. DeFazio. Dr. White. 



Dr. White. Accountability was mentioned, and part of that is 

 monitoring and evaluating what is done. You cannot do that on 

 every project or it will double or triple the projects. 



What Dr. Ice is talking about here, you know, is sticks and 

 stones put in the creek. I'd pose the question: How much good has 

 it done? That needs to be evaluated. 



I hope that is happening and that is what should be pressed for 

 in this legislation, if it takes place, is money earmarked for that 

 that cannot be taken out and given to something else. 



Mr. DeFazio. Okay. 



Mr. Higgins. 



Mr. Higgins. I think it is difficult to get private timber, at least 

 where I live, to cooperate in a program, because right now their ac- 

 tivities are virtually unregulated. They are writing their own rules 

 in California. They control the courts in California, the Department 

 of Forestry and their Grouse Creek, Six Rivers Forest has looked 

 at Grouse Creek because of cumulative effects, and the California 

 Department of Forestry has yet to turn down a timber harvest 



