EFFECTIVENESS OF THE COMMITTEE ON OCEANOGRAPHY 65 



and it is possible to do fairly complete research on both the health of 

 shellfish and the healtb of humans who will consume shellfish in one 

 facility, is it not? 



Mr. McKernan. I would not like to answer that with an equivocal 

 "Yes" or "No." 



Mr. Dingell. Well, will you deny that statement, then? 



Mr. McKernan. Yes, I will deny that statement. I f the objectives 

 are, for example, to test the accumulation of E coli, why then you 

 would have to have the kind of environment to start your experiments 

 which was relatively free of this, and then you would have to design 

 your experiments so that the accumulation of such organisms would 

 be at a known rate. 



Now, if you were trying to find out whether shellfish accumulated 

 these pollutants or not, you could not have extraneous sources of the 

 pollutants coming in at odd hours or times. 



Mr. Dingell. It is still possible to do all of this at one facility, is 

 it not? 



Mr. McKernan. It is physically possible, but scientifically ■ 



Mr. Dingell. It is physically and scientifically possible — I mean, 

 if it is physically possible, it is also scientifically possible. 



Mr. McKernan. It may not make good scientific sense to do so. 



Mr. Dingell. Well, it is both physically and scientifically possible 

 to accomplish this research at one facility, is it not? 



Mr. McKernan. It is possible, but it may not make for good 

 scientific results. 



Mr. Dingell. Yes, and it is possible to have good scientific results, 

 and have it physically and scientifically possible; is it not? I am 

 getting into the realm of theory, but I — — ■ 



Mr. McKernan. You have lost me, Mr. Chairman. 



Mr. Dingell. I regard it as being very foolish for the Government 

 to establish three facilities. Frankly, when the departments do this, 

 it makes it very difficult for somebody like myself who supports these 

 appropriations. It subjects me to criticism, and it makes it very, very 

 difficult in Congress to get money for Governmental agencies, when 

 we find out that there are three of these facilities set up in three 

 different places, all to do research on shellfish, and as I read shellfish, 

 as I understand them — I am not an expert on the subject — it is 

 possible physically and scientifically to do the research in one place 

 on both the health of the shellfish and on the individual, and on the 

 impact on human beings who will consume them. 



By the way, I intend to pursue this further. I am not satisfied 

 with the correspondence I received from either your Department or 

 the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare on the subject. 



Mr. McKernan. Mr. Chairman, I would welcome participation in 

 this with you, and I would hope to convince you, as I myself have 

 been convinced, that after carefully examining the objectives of the 

 two Departments, that these particular facilities appear to be justified. 



I certainly want to offer my own services and those of my staff. 

 We have had rather long and searching examination into this. I 

 appreciate your interest in it very much. If I were you, I would do 

 the same, and I certainly would welcome this. I would even say 

 that it might be possible that our examination has not been searching 

 enough, but I also would say that we have conscientiously attempted to 

 look into this problem, and so far, I am convinced of the merits 

 of the proposal, but I would certainly 



