11 



actually come down to the beach. Gabon has one of the largest pop- 

 ulations of forest elephants in the world. There is a famous park 

 in the Congo, on the Congo-CAR border, on which there was a 

 cover story in Time magazine last year. 



These are going to be very specialized ecotourism experiences for 

 awhile; but tney can be very, very important in those economies, 

 I think. 



Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. And you would say that those benefit the 

 local communities? 



Mr. Pringle. If properly structured. And I think to be viable that 

 they have got to be. Yes, in terms of — I believe, for example, that 

 in Zambia, Mark and Delia Owens who wrote "The Cry of the 

 Kalahari", have discovered again that the way to do effective ele- 

 phant conservation is to involve local communities. Their whole 

 structure and their whole project approach — Delia Owens, Mark 

 and Delia Owens. Their whole approach in Zambia has been based 

 on that, and it is a source of income. It is the only effective way 

 of getting a handle on the poaching situation. 



Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Well, thank you. Finally, from time to time, 

 there are articles in the African press about waste management 

 companies of Europe and North America, who are seeking to dump 

 hazardous waste in African countries. 



What is the administration's policy toward shipment of hazard- 

 ous waste for disposal in Africa? 



Mr. Pringle. You hit me in an area that I am not personally an 

 expert on. So let me proceed with a certain amount of caution. I 

 do not think that anybody is in favor of the dumping of hazardous 

 waste. 



There is an issue that has been before the Basel Convention, 

 which we are not a member of, recently, which is a bit controver- 

 sial. And that involves the legitimate, at least in my view legiti- 

 mate, export of scrap material for recycling. Not hazardous waste, 

 but things like plastics or metal, which are exported and which can 

 be processed industrially in developing countries without any haz- 

 ard to anybody, as a legitimate source of economic livelihood. 



There is a debate in the international community, and in the 

 context of the Basel Convention on that. But I think as far as sim- 

 ply exporting hazardous or toxic materials, that that is absolutely 

 unthinkable and to be condemned, not only on its own face but be- 

 cause we all know how sensitive the Africans are to this kind of 

 thing. I think that they simply will not stand for it. 



Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Thank you. Let me ask some more questions 

 until some of the members come back. 



About the urbanization of the African population. Urban pollu- 

 tion problems continue to build in most parts of the Third World 

 as population growth in cities continues to expand more rapidly, 

 obviously, than the urban infrastructure can absorb. It is true for 

 us here as well. 



What can and should be done to slow the urbanization of the Af- 

 rican population, and is that anything that this administration is 

 working toward with African countries? 



Mr. Pringle. Of course, what attracts people to cities is employ- 

 ment. And above all, in the old days, when urban populations were 

 subsidized by governments, they were given cheap food, and they 



