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tation system or a space laboratory, should not be counted as part 

 of the R&D budget because they're not R&D. 



I've got a little problem with that because I can't quite imagine 

 how you're going to do R&D in space, for example, if you don't have 

 a transportation system to get you into space and a laboratory up 

 there. 



Now, of course, I know the arguments that you can do it all with 

 unmanned vehicles and capability, but it's not persuasive if you 

 think there really is a future in the development of space. And I 

 don't think the high-energy physician or the fusion physicist are 

 going to buy the argument that we're going to have a vigorous, 

 healthy program in these fields without creating machines. 



You just don't do it. 



Dr. Press. Some of the items that you've listed we would include 

 in the R&D categories. I mean, an accelerator is part of the R&D 

 category. It is not in something that would be excluded in the 

 equivalent of the higher-order defense work 



Mr. Brown. In other words, the super-conducting supercollider 

 would be. 



Dr. Press. That would be absolutely included in it. In fact, we're 

 working with the American Association for the Advancement of 

 Science to more precisely define the categories that would be in- 

 cluded in the FS&T budget and would be excluded. 



But half of the items on your list, as I heard them, would be part 

 of the R&D budget. 



Mr. Brown. Let me just make a concluding statement because 

 I don't want to 



Chairman Walker. The gentleman's time has expired. 



Mr. Brown, (continuing) overstay my time. 



There's a suspicious feel about your recommendations. And I 

 know that this is a distortion of your intent, that, faced with tough 

 times, you presented a report which benefited the academic re- 

 search community and disregarded everyone else. 



I don't think that's healthy, and particularly in that it neglects 

 the need in the academic community to make major changes re- 

 gardless of the federal funding. 



I hope you'll keep that in mind. 



Dr. Press. Yes. May I just say, Mr. Chairman, if I were at a fed- 

 eral laboratory that met its sponsor's needs and was well evalu- 

 ated, I would have nothing to worry about insofar as our rec- 

 ommendations are concerned. 



And insofar as the academic community, we wanted to recognize 

 that turning out trained scientists and engineers and social sci- 

 entists and so on, not all of whom will become research people, but 

 they will all go out and populate our industries and provide leader- 

 ship for our industries, that's an important contribution that has 

 to be recognized. 



That's the sole difference. 



Dr. Fox. Mr. Brown, the complementarity, too, that I referred to 

 about national laboratories and universities really is a new para- 

 digm for universities. And cooperation between universities and the 

 private sector is increasingly being recognized as being part of this 

 key integration. 



So I think it's not inconsistent with that. 



