38 



thicker than they were in 1928? How much wildlife can exist in 

 these trees where your groups have been so very successful in pre- 

 venting any cutting, even of dead trees, thinning? How well does 

 the wildlife exist in these areas where there is nothing left? 



Ms. Phillips. Perhaps I can try to answer that in a slightly dif- 

 ferent way, because I had been able to observe the results of the 

 large fires on the Wenatchee National Forest in Eastern Washing- 

 ton. 



Mr. Herger. Did it consume everything there? 



Ms. Phillips. I was going to try to explain what I knew about 

 that. Excuse me, please. 



But first of all, I do want to clarify. Mr. Geisinger is wrong in 

 that the record of decision said that the Endangered Species Act 

 would be in effect and, therefore, the Section 318 sales that are in 

 violation would not have been logged. 



But getting on to your question, sir, my sense, and I cannot pos- 

 sibly 



Mr. Herger. Very briefly, if there are no trees left, how much 

 wildlife can exist in forests that are in my area where there are 

 no trees or any wildlife, no vegetation at all left? How much wild- 

 life can exist there? Spotted owls, can they exist where there is 

 nothing left, but thousands of bare acres. 



Ms. Phillips. So you are asking me — excuse me 



Mr. Herger. I am. It is your policy that has been so successful 

 in completely stopping any kind of harvest at all, even the removal 

 of dead and d3dng trees to help prevent these massive forest fires 

 which burned 540,000 acres of timber in California alone in 1994. 

 We may even break that record this year. 



I guess my question has an obvious answer. There is not any 

 wildlife, and I find it unbelievable that organizations like yours 

 and individuals like you can come before this committee supporting 

 the Sierra Club's stand this year that they do not want to see an- 

 other tree, dead or living, ever removed again from our forests. I 

 think this is tragic and as irresponsible as anything I have ever 

 seen. 



Mr. Bendix, if I could 



Ms. Phillips. I am sorry, are you telling me that I cannot an- 

 swer your question? Are you just 



Mr. Herger. I am just stating that I believe the answer is obvi- 

 ous. There is — well, let me ask it again. 



Ms. Phillips. You are asking me a question and you are not let- 

 ting me answer? I just want to clarify that. 



Mr. Herger. OK. Are there owls that can live where there is 

 nothing left? 



Ms. Phillips. If that is what you are doing, that is fine, sir. 



Mr. Herger. Where there is nothing left, can owls or any kind 

 of birds or peafowl 



Ms. Phillips. I am not a member of the Sierra Club. The Na- 

 tional Audubon Society has not taken that position. There is noth- 

 ing my organization has 



Mr. Herger. But you have joined into lawsuits with them, you 

 stated. 



Ms. Phillips. To be able to — the Sierra Club has not been in- 

 volved in the spotted owl lawsuits. To ever be able to do anything 



