45 



taking away the ability for citizens to interact with land managers 

 when it is public land, this is what we object to. 



We do not object to any particular — I mean, I will tell you per- 

 sonally, I do not agree with any more logging of old growth na- 

 tional forests, but if we are talking here about salvage, I think my 

 record speaks for what I have not challenged, what I have the abil- 

 ity to challenge, but I truly believe in democracy and I believe in 

 the people's forest and I believe in a citizen — a citizen, no matter 

 who that citizen is, their right to participate in the democratic 

 process, which is why I would like to see the entire salvage rider 

 and all of its components repealed. 



Yes. I base that on information that was put in the court record 

 by the administration and by wildlife biologists, particularly Kim 

 Nelson, who is considered one of the premiere researchers on 

 murrelets, and her testimony, which, by the way, was not just a 

 few sales. It could have been up to 10,000 acres, and that is 10,000 

 critical acres. But this species, of course, is listed under the Endan- 

 gered Species Act, so we are talking about an endangered species. 

 It is listed as threatened. 



The 20 percent of the known murrelet activity or nesting areas 

 was involved in those 10,000 areas. So when you take an endan- 

 gered species already on the Endangered Species Act and the U.S. 

 Fish and Wildlife Service has decided that their decision, which is 

 why I do not agree and I appreciate Mrs. Chenoweth putting infor- 

 mation in for the record because I think it speaks to exactly what 

 I was trying to say, that the ESA was still in effect in the record 

 of decision, is that they gave those jeopardy opinions, which meant 

 that they felt that would jeopardize the existence of a species that 

 was listed under the Endangered Species Act. 



So when you take that U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's deter- 

 mination that the species may go extinct, because that is what 

 jeopardy means, and you take away 20 percent of the known nest- 

 ing and murrelet activity areas, I think it, indeed, does have a dev- 

 astating effect. 



Mr. RiGGS. Let me turn to the gentlemen real quick before my 

 time expires. But first let me note that, regarding your earlier com- 

 ment, citizens can interact with the agencies under the salvage 

 law. We expressly permitted that under the law and there is ample 

 opportunity for citizen input when the agencies are preparing the 

 sales. There is also public comment under the administration's im- 

 plementation of the law and there is also an appeal for arbitrary 

 and capricious decisions. 



Gentlemen, do you all agree that the primary reason that we are 

 here today is the failure of this Congress and past Congresses to 

 reform the Endangered Species Law? 



Mr. Geisinger. I would like to try that first, and you may not 

 like my answer, Congressman. The answer is no. The injunction 

 that led to the creation of Option 9 had nothing to do with the En- 

 dangered Species Act. They were a violation of the National Forest 

 Management Act viability regulation and NEPA violations for not 

 supposedly preparing an adequate environmental impact state- 

 ment. It was the viability regulation that Judge Dwyer hung his 

 hat on for enjoining most of the Pacific Northwest timber sale pro- 

 gram. 



