50 



Mr. Vento. As long as I still have time, if the Chairwoman rec- 

 ognized my time. 



Mrs. Chenoweth. Yes, I will grant you time. 



I appreciate Mr. Herger for pointing out the fact that these sales 

 sometimes are not profitable because they do take so long to issue, 

 and that was the very reason why we put through this salvage sale 

 rider. Salvage sales need not be a loser for the government, but I 

 can tell you one thing, Mr. Vento. Fires are a loser for the govern-^ 

 ment, a big loser, so 



Mr. Vento. I appreciate the observation with regards to fire. I 

 just would suggest that that comes out of accumulation of manage- 

 ment that has gone on for 100 years. It is not simply the most re- 

 cent phenomenon. It has to do with how we fight fires and our fire 

 regime. That, I hope, will be led by the science, not by emotions, 

 and I think that it is a very emotional issue. I think that, in the 

 end, we are going to have some fires. I do not think it is the sal- 

 vage rider that is going to prevent it. I do not think it is wilderness 

 management that is going to prevent it. 



I think that we really need to reconcile that and not just use it 

 as a debating point here or blame the management of the North- 

 west. After all, if cutting trees down was going to save the North- 

 west, it would have been saved many times over, based on the fact 

 that we were cutting what, in my judgment, not to be argumen- 

 tative with my colleagues, but what is over the sustainable type of 

 forest. 



The question is, how do you get the salvages done? The real 

 question is, it is easy to sell the profitable stuff, but to manage a 

 forest properly, you need to deal with forest health and you need 

 to deal with much of what you would say is salvage, and most sal- 

 vage — almost all salvage in most regions is not profitable to the 

 government. Obviously, if you get wood prices high enough, it 

 would be, but none of us are looking for higher wood prices, I do 

 not think. 



Mrs. Chenoweth. I thank the gentleman, Mr. Vento. 



Mr. Vento. You are welcome. Madam Chair. Thank you. 



Mrs. Chenoweth. I thank this panel for coming so far and for 

 your very informative and instructive testimony. I would like to ex- 

 cuse the panel now and call the next panel. 



Mrs. Chenoweth. The next panel consists of the Honorable 

 James R. Lyons, Under Secretary for Natural Resources and Envi- 

 ronment in the tJ.S. Department of Agriculture, and Mr. Lyons will 

 be accompanied by the Honorable Jack Ward Thomas, Chief of the 

 Forest Service and Mr. Tom Tuchmann, Special Assistant to the 

 Secretary. We will also have joining us Ms. Nancy Hayes, Chief of 

 Staff and Counselor, Bureau of Land Management, U.S. Depart- 

 ment of Interior. 



STATEMENT OF JAMES R. LYONS, UNDER SECRETARY FOR 

 NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT, UNITED STATES 

 DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, ACCOMPANIED BY JACK 

 WARD THOMAS, CHIEF, FOREST SERVICE, AND THOMAS 

 TUCHMANN, SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE SECRETARY 



Mr. Lyons. Thank you very much. Madam Chairwoman. I appre- 

 ciate the opportunity to appear before you today. As you indicated, 



