63 



with an EIS and that should be subject to appeal, so the public has 

 an opportunity to- 



Mr. Hansen. How do you 



Mr. Lyons. That is the only distinction we have drawn. 



Mr. Hansen. Excuse me, Mr. Secretary. How do you determine 

 when it is highly susceptible to fire? 



Mr. Lyons. That is a judgment that has to be made on the 

 ground, but it also has something to do with 



Mr. Hansen. The district supervisor would make that decision? 



Mr. Lyons. Yes, and 



Mr. Hansen. Is that how that works, Chief? 



Mr. Thomas. Yes, sir. That would be correct, unless the volume 

 was over 20 percent of the volume was green and the Secretary has 

 instructed me to review those sales. 



Mr. Hansen. Thank you. 



Chief, while I have you at the microphone there, I understand 

 you recently visited some of the Forest Service salvage sales in the 

 West. Based on your observation when you were out there, do you 

 agree with Bonnie Phillips in her testimony, "the salvage rider has 

 had a devastating effect on the ecological environment"? 



Mr. Thomas. No, sir. 



Mr. Hansen. You do not agree with that? How about 



Mr. Thomas. Wait. Wait. I 



Mr. Hansen. Excuse me, sir. Go ahead. 



Mr. Thomas. Let me — this is critical. Repeat that for me. I am 

 a little deaf. 



Mr. Hansen. So am I, so speak up. Too much shooting in your 

 younger years. 



Mr. Thomas. I still do it. 



Mr. Hansen. I do, too. 



Mr. Thomas. Could you repeat the question, please? 



Mr. Hansen. I just wondered, on your recent visit where you had 

 an opportunity to see the salvage sales when you were out in the 

 West, do you agree with Ms. Phillips, who testified earlier, and in 

 her testimony, she says, "the salvage rider has had a devastating 

 effect on the ecological environment"? Do you agree with that state- 

 ment? 



Mr. Thomas. I would like to separate the question of the 318 

 sales away from the salvage part. There were 318 sales, the old 

 growth sales that were associated. If we separate that out and talk 

 about the salvage aspects of the rider, I do not agree with that. 



Mr. Hansen. You do not? How about you, Nancy Hayes from 

 BLM? Do you agree with that statement from Bonnie Phillips? 



Ms. Hayes. The BLM has, as the President directed, followed all 

 environmental laws in implementing the salvage portion of the sal- 

 vage rider. Therefore, I would not agree that it has had a devastat- 

 ing effect. 



Mr. Hansen. So both the Forest Service and BLM would disagree 

 with the Audubon Society on this statement, then? 



Mr. Thomas. I disagree with that statement, yes, sir. 



Mr. Hansen. OK. Chief, the spotted owl situation on the Olympic 

 Peninsula has recently been reanalyzed. What do the scientists 

 think about the spotted owl population on the Olympic Peninsula? 

 Is this an area of particular concern for the spotted owl? 



