69 



Mr. Hansen. The market is always the driver in this thing, there 

 is no question about it, just like our cattlemen right now. I wonder 

 if there will be any of them left at the end of the year. The cattle 

 prices are down to zilch, but you do not see an3rthing reduced in 

 the supermarket. That is what bothers me, and it kind of gives you 

 a little clue. I have had a chat with Secretary Glickman, and I ap- 

 preciate him moving out on that. I have greatest the respect for 

 Secretary Glickman and his group. He seems to be on top of it. 



Mr. Herger, do you have some questions for this last panel? 



Mr. Herger. Thank you. I do, Mr. Chairman. Again, I appreciate 

 a chance to be able to sit on your panel and I appreciate our panel- 

 ists. 



Just catching part of your last statement here. Chief Thomas, I 

 would have to say I agree with you. We have a major problem, 

 which I believe the Forest Service and many of us are aware of. 

 At least, some of us are aware of this. We eliminated fire beginning 

 in the 1850's, heavily eliminated it in the early 1900's and up to 

 this point, and we have forests that by the Forest Service's own 

 statistics are 82 percent denser and thicker than they were in 

 1928, maybe one and a half times denser than they were in the 

 1850's. 



Now, we are in this situation, particularly in California, where 

 we are subject to droughts, where we do not get as much rainfall 

 as in Washington and Oregon and where we now have forests that 

 will burn entirely, unlike historically, prior to the Europeans com- 

 ing to California, when there were periodic fires that did not burn 

 the entire forest. That is what I see as a problem. I believe that 

 is what you were alluding to, this big problem that we have of get- 

 ting to and somehow managing these forests, at least in part. 



But just to ask you briefly, I know that you have stated before 

 this Congress in the past that you have faith, great faith in the 

 qualifications and judgment and work ethic of your local Forest 

 Service experts. I would presume that this has not changed. 



Mr. Thomas. That is correct. 



Mr. Herger. If you would look at some pictures that we have 

 taken from different areas in the district that I represent, one is 

 a picture of the Lick Creek, which is part of the Klamath National 

 Forest and part of the Dillon fire area, and the other is a Lone Pine 

 Ridge which is between the Six Rivers and the Shasta Trinity, on 

 the border of both Congressman Riggs' and my district. 



Your local experts have identified these two sites as areas that 

 are eminently susceptible to fire. I guess my initial question is 

 whether you would agree with them? 



Mr. Thomas. I would not argue with my local experts, but I will 

 not answer it over looking at those pictures. 



Mr. Herger. Understandably. But these are some pictures of the 

 areas that they looked at extensively on the ground and have de- 

 termined — at least, their judgment was that these sites are a major 

 risk and that there should be something done with them, like treat- 

 ment, in order to reduce the risk of wildfire. Yet both of these 

 areas, both Lick Creek and Lone Pine Ridge, are located in 

 roadless areas. Based on the recent directives from the Secretary 

 of Agriculture and clarifying memoranda from you, will these sales 



