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coming who would not be aware of the baiting, but they were there 

 just to promote a charitable thing? I mean, I used to handle all of 

 the fish and wildlife stuff in the State of Utah my years in the leg- 

 islature, and I am totally against anyone who poaches or breaks 

 the law. But we would fmd cases where they would bait for a bear, 

 for example, and they would come there, and sure enough, he 

 would entice that animal to that position and kill the animal. But 

 it would seem to me in the spirit of this that these people were 

 doing something of a worthwhile nature. I agree that the law is the 

 law, and I do not want to argue that point. But whoever baited it 

 was probably trying to enhance the quality of the hunt — I do not 

 know. 



But if I were you, and I had known it had been baited, it would 

 seem to me that it would have been the prudent thing to do to stop 

 it before it started and to go to the sponsors of the thing and say 

 this looks like an illegal hunt, and it looks like someone has broken 

 a Federal law — obviously not these people. So they walk in, and 

 you obviously are going to catch them. 



Mr. Oliveros. Well, first of all, there was no law broken until 

 people entered the field to hunt. There is no law against baiting 

 migratory birds. The law is when you take birds in association with 

 the bait. Again, had we warned them, they would have probably 

 just gone to one of the other fields. Each hunter who entered that 

 field, the bait was there obvious for anyone to see. For anyone who 

 walked around a short period of time and just made a cursory in- 

 spection, it would have been obvious to them that that area was 

 baited. They all had the decision to make, well, am I going to stay 

 here and hunt over this baited area, or am I going to leave? 



Mr. Hansen. Was it not obvious to you, though, that you would 

 have an exact set-up, cannot lose type of thing, though, with all of 

 these gentlemen and ladies going in there? I mean, true, there was 

 no law broken. But two kids in Corvettes gunning their cars at the 

 stop light, there is no law broken until the light changes, but ev- 

 erybody knows they are going to go zooming down the road. And 

 maybe sometimes if a policeman pulls up behind them, I notice 

 they do not go zooming down the road. Maybe I am on the wrong 

 track here, but this is the closest thing to a sting operation I have 

 seen for a long time. 



Mr. Oliveros. If I can make an analogy 



Mr. Hansen. Surely. 



Mr. Oliveros. When you warn people, it may prevent that viola- 

 tion, but it does no good to prevent future violations. Think, for ex- 

 ample, of everybody who drives and goes down the interstate. And 

 if a State trooper stops you and says I am going to give you a 

 warning, sure, you stop, but then, after a couple of days when you 

 forget about it, you go on. Or if you know that they give you 5 

 miles per hour, everybody goes 5 miles per hour over. If you want 

 to stop people from speeding in an area, you start giving tickets, 

 and people will slow down. 



Mr. Hansen. What time did the hunt start, may I ask? 



Mr. Oliveros. I am not sure of the exact time. I arrived on the 

 field about 2:00, and it was ongoing then. 



Mr. Hansen. So the hunt maybe started when? Noon? Some- 

 where in there? 



