12 



That is the end of my questioning. Mr. Studds, why don't you 

 proceed. 



Mr. Studds. It is your problem now, Mr. Chairman. Good luck. 



I think it is very wise of you not to request any funding, other- 

 wise you might be abolished. My counsel to you would be to keep 

 your head down. If attacked, claim you don't exist. 



Mr. Jones. Mr. Chairman, I am afraid it is 



Mr. Studds. Try to ride it out. 



Mr. Jones. Congressman, I am afraid it is too late. 



Mr. Studds. Don't be ashamed of highfalutin goals. I mean, con- 

 sider what these folks say they are going to do, pretty awesome. 



I remember when we worked on this law three years ago. Much 

 of the opposition was based, I think, more on fear of the unknown 

 than perhaps anjrthing else. That is understandable, an industry 

 that has never been regulated faces the prospect for the first time 

 of regulation of some kind. Based on the concerns we have heard 

 leading up to this hearing, it sounds to me like we may have that 

 same problem again. And I am sort of trying to sort out fiction from 

 fact. Can you tell us how many permits have actually been denied? 

 How many birds have actually been confiscated and how many for- 

 eign governments have in fact complained about the crackdown on 

 trade in birds? 



Mr, Jones. Congressman, if I could take your questions in re- 

 verse order. I know of no foreign governments which have ex- 

 pressed any complaints to us about the implementation of the Wild 

 Bird Act. We have had some direct dealings with foreign govern- 

 ments, and my colleague Dr. Lieberman has just returned, for ex- 

 ample, from meetings in Central America where she worked exten- 

 sively with colleagues from Latin American countries, Argentina 

 and others, about how they could improve their management of 

 wild birds and how they could hope to qualify under the law once 

 our regulations are final. 



In terms of the number of confiscations. Congressman, with your 

 permission I would like to turn to my colleague, Mr. Tom Striegler 

 from our division of law enforcement and ask him if he could ad- 

 dress that question. 



Mr. Striegler. Mr. Chairman, our computer indicates that we 

 have seized a little over 2600 birds since the implementation of the 

 Act. Now I am not — I don't have the disposition of all those birds, 

 so I don't know that all of them have actually been forfeited to the 

 government, but those are the number of seizures indicated by our 

 central computer. 



Mr. Jones. And finally. Congressman, you asked about the num- 

 ber of permits which we have denied, and let me ask Dr. 

 Lieberman if she has the information. 



Dr. Lieberman. Yes, thank you. We have denied two permits for 

 scientific research, two for zoological breeding and display and we 

 have denied two applications for cooperative breeding programs out 

 of a total of 12 applications, 



Mr. Studds. Thank you. You made some reference, Mr, Jones, to 

 the fact that there have been suggestions that we eliminate from 

 regulation captive-bred critters. I know — ^I recall that one of our 

 concerns in 1992 was so-called bird laundering, that is not putting 

 them in the washing machine, but we were worried about illegally 



