12 



Mr. Chairman, I might add, if I may take a point of personal 

 privilege, I am a fisherman, and why the SBA would deny these 

 loans to the fishermen of Massachusetts has certainly challenged 

 my interest in this particular hearing. 



I certainly look forward to working with you in whatever it is we 

 can do to bring about the necessary economic relief that the fisher- 

 men certainly need. 



I would also ask, Mr. Chairman, that the remarks of my distin- 

 guished colleague, the Honorable Barney Frank, also be entered 

 into the record. 



Chairman Torkildsen. Without objection, so ordered. 



[Mr. Frank's statement may be found in the appendix.] 



Chairman Torkildsen. I thank the gentleman from Illinois for 

 his insightful comments and look forward to working with him for 

 a solution. I concur with his statement on questioning how the SBA 

 reached its decision in this case. 



I would like to start off questioning with Mr. Kulik, and let's go 

 back to the Governor's first request. We have a case where, out in 

 the Pacific, we have a storm known generally as El Nino. Clearly, 

 it is a condition that increases the water temperature. No one 

 doubts that salmon stocks in the Pacific Northwest have been af- 

 fected by substantial fishing. No one has ever doubted that. 



But El Nino and the warming water conditions seem to be 

 enough to give the authority to grant loans for, if you will, a natu- 

 ral cause, even though the natural cause was not the only cause 

 for depletion of the salmon stock. 



On the East Keys we clearly had evidence of warming ocean cur- 

 rents. We don't have a folksy name for it yet. Perhaps we will come 

 up with one so people can readily identify it. But there are no 

 doubt natural factors contributing to these low stock classes and, 

 because of that, the very, very slow recovery of these fishing stocks, 

 even though there have been enormously painful requirements 

 forced on fishing families through Amendments 5 and 7. 



What was the rationale for saying that if water warms in the Pa- 

 cific it is part of a natural disaster, but if water warms in the At- 

 lantic, you are on your own? What is the rationale for that deci- 

 sion? 



Mr. Kulik. Mr. Chairman, as I recall, El Nino is a specific cur- 

 rent that moves its location from one place to another rather than 

 a gradual warming. 



I would also add, however, that El Nino is specifically covered in 

 the legislative history of section 3(k) of the Small Business Act, 

 and, once again, the specific provisions that would have covered 

 this type of disaster in the past — the economic dislocation provi- 

 sion, and the Government action provision — were repealed by Con- 

 gress. 



I would also add, sir, in the information that was supplied to us 

 in support of the Governor's request, the warming trend was not 

 a matter of a current moving from here to here but was a matter 

 of gradual warming that took place over a long number of years. 



Chairman Torkildsen. Well, I think that the statement provided 

 by the then Commerce Secretary mentioning the disability of 

 strong year-classes would indicate that it was not over a long pe- 

 riod of time. I think if you look at the year-classes, that you have 



