14 



NASA has increased its partnership with small businesses in a 

 number of ways, in both direct and in subcontracting awards. 

 Those successes, combined with NASA's SBIR awards, demonstrate 

 a keen interest in working with small businesses. NASA has also 

 taken steps to increase the commercial applications of SBIR tech- 

 nology to increase U.S. competitiveness. 



While we do support the SBIR and STTR Programs, it is impor- 

 tant that we maintain balance between the R&D, the basic NASA 

 R&D Program, and the SBIR Program. If the option arises, we 

 would prefer to examine the increase to the SBIR set-aside percent- 

 age. 



I will be happy to discuss any SBIR and STTR issues. Thank 



you. 



[Dr. Norwood's statement may be found in the appendix.] 



Chairman TORKILDSEN. Thank you, Dr. Norwood. You certainly 

 win the award for condensing your statement. I would like to ap- 

 plaud all the witnesses because none of you went over your 5 min- 

 utes suggested time and that is sincerely appreciated. 



I have a number of questions, however, I will defer to my col- 

 leagues on the panel first. Mr. Thompson or Mr. Fields. Congress- 

 man Thompson. 



Mr. Thompson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This would basically 

 be to Mr. Glover. In your experience as Counsel for the Small Busi- 

 ness Innovation Research Program, have you found anything that 

 would say that that program costs the taxpayer more money or 

 that it provided poor quality of product or anything that would sug- 

 gest that program is anything less than positive? 



Mr. Glover. No, I have not, nor have any of the other GAO re- 

 ports or SBA Program office review of this. Everybody that has 

 looked at this program finds it to be a wonderful example of how 

 a set-aside program, well thought through, has been very success- 

 ful. I think it is a model and it is something that this subcommittee 

 especially should be proud of. It is something that came from the 

 grassroots. Small business recommended it, knew they had a prob- 

 lem, and there was no other way to solve the problem. 



Quite frankly, I was involved in the Carter administration and 

 working on the Reagan administration and there was literally 

 nothing that could be done to make the agencies change. I heard 

 agencies come in and promise that they would do better in 1978, 

 this committee, and they did not. Voluntary programs in this case, 

 did not work. This program has been a beautiful success, the re- 

 search. You can go through all the types of great technology that 

 has come out of this program. It generates jobs. It creates tax reve- 

 nues. All these studies have been produced. I have summarized 

 many of them in my written testimony. 



It is a wonderful success. The quality of the research is excellent 

 and the taxpayers receive a real bang for their bucks out of this. 



Mr. Thompson. What if critics would say that well this is an- 

 other one of those set-aside programs that, lack of a better term, 

 boondoggle created to make people feel good? 



Mr. Glover. Certainly people can say that about anything. I 

 think there is no evidence to support that in this case and I think 

 very little evidence in many cases on programs, but this is clearly 

 one that has been studied to death. This program was not some- 



