25 



serves as a flag to the other agencies that there may be duplication 

 in terms of the awards there. 



Mr. Rezendes. May I make a comment on that? It is on SBA's 

 behalf. I want to mention that this is not as easy as it seems. What 

 we are talking about is proprietary information. In some cases, peo- 

 ples' ideas and notions and you just do not want to have that 

 broadcast everywhere for everyone to see, but you do want to have 

 some kind of system where it would trigger a conversation beyond 

 that if, in fact, there is a notion that there is duplication going on. 



Also, I wanted to comment just a little on this question about the 

 magnitude of this. I really do not have any idea. What we are 

 parroting here is some anecdotal information we have received 

 from the various agencies and Justice Department, and no one has 

 ever done a comprehensive analysis to determine exactly how much 

 duplication there is out there. From the agencies we have spoke to, 

 there is a notion that this is — only a few firms that are involved 

 in this. But the reality is, we really do not know. 



Mr. Glover. The one thing that we do know is that out of 35,000 

 awards through the years, that only two have actually been re- 

 ferred for action by any of the inspector generals of the various 

 agencies, and the agencies have looked at it to some extent. So, we 

 know it is not widespread. No case of fraud is appropriate, but I 

 do not want to leave you with the impression that this is a signifi- 

 cant problem that occurs on a regular basis. I think it is laudable 

 that we fix it so that we reduce the chances of it, but I think we 

 need to keep it in perspective, that it is a rare, rare situation. 



Chairman ToRKlLDSEN. For a final question on this subject, Mr. 

 Neal, will the computer you are developing for real time, will that 

 contain the abstracts of these proposals on them or how much in- 

 formation will actually be there? 



Mr. Neal. I can provide you with the details of it. But as it is 

 right now, as had been mentioned by the GAO representative, we 

 are being very careful as to not put too much information in there 

 to violate the proprietary information rights of the firms that are 

 participating in the program. But I can provide you with the de- 

 tails as to the schematics as to how the system is being put to- 

 gether and what will be the criteria for the information that will 

 be available. 



Chairman TORKILDSEN. That would be fine. A few other general 

 areas and then we will bring the hearing to a conclusion. Mr. Glov- 

 er, you mentioned the high return to taxpayers. Just for the record, 

 could you expand a little bit on that, the benefit, both financial and 

 other, that the taxpayers receive from this program? 



Mr. Glover. Yes, the National Science Foundation has probably 

 done more work in this area than anvone else has, and I will be 

 happy to provide that to you specifically. But in general, the com- 

 mercialization of this has resulted in a large number of jobs being 

 created and that if we look at the benefit to the economy fi-om 

 those jobs having been created, we find that exceeds the cost of the 

 program. Some of the more notable examples were listed in my tes- 

 timony and we talk about how some of those examples have been 

 very, very successful in terms of breakthrough. Both in Mr. Neal's 

 testimony and mine go into some length about that. So, I think 

 that on balance we have seen the taxpayers receive that. 



