29 



agencies, the extramural piece will be cut back the most. So, we 

 should fight hard to keep that 2.5 percent. 



Chairman Torkildsen. Does anyone on the panel have any his- 

 toric numbers on that and where we can expect to be in the next 

 budget? Is that available? Perhaps if I could ask, to the extent pos- 

 sible, if Mr. Neal and Mr. Glover could assemble that. I do not ex- 

 pect it to be readily available, but it would require working with 

 the agencies to assemble it. It think it would be very helpful to the 

 subcommittee. 



Mr. Glover. We will be happy to do that. The SBIR managers 

 get together basically on a monthly basis and we will ask them to 

 pull that together. Most of them are here today. 



Chairman Torkildsen. Thank you. 



Dr. Norwood. Mr. Chairman, may I add a couple of additional 

 remarks to the comments that you just heard about? 



Chairman TORKILDSEN. Please do. 



Dr. Norwood. The issue of the set-aside percentage. Let me say 

 overall NASA has tried and is very successful in increasing the 

 overall percentage of small businesses and the total amount of 

 awards to small businesses, not only for all of the efforts and ac- 

 tivities at NASA, but as far as R&D is concerned. For example, if 

 you look overall at NASA, in 1983, about $480 million was awarded 

 to small businesses for the NASA Programs, not just R&D but for 

 NASA Programs. 



In 1994, excluding SBIR, $1,01 billion was awarded to small 

 businesses directly and an additional amount was awarded in 

 terms of subcontracts. So, we have gone from $480 million to over 

 a billion dollars for small businesses, not including SBIR. 



If you look at the portion of that small business, again not in- 

 cluding SBIR, that is strictly for R&D purposes, in 1994 that num- 

 ber was $301 million, a little over $301 million which has increased 

 from about $250 million in fiscal year 1993. So, we do support the 

 program. 



I think our record and our numbers show that we have made 

 great strides in including small businesses in our overall program 

 and particularly in our R&D Program, and all we are asking for 

 is to adjust the rate of increase or to revisit, if the opportunity 

 comes up, the rate of increase, so we can have a balance in our 

 overall R&D Program. 



NASA, in particular, a lot of our science and other missions are 

 funded out of the R&D budget. That is part of their extramural 

 R&D budget. So, when you put funds into SBIR which is of course 

 valuable and we have attested to the fact that it is valuable, you 

 unbalance the program. All we are suggesting is that we get a 

 chance to revisit that if the opportunity comes up. 



Chairman TORKILDSEN. Dr. Barish. 



Dr. Barish. To comment on some of the possible differences of 

 opinion among the agencies and also the small business commu- 

 nity. I think it is important to remember that in the four purposes 

 of the original legislation in 1983, two of them in some sense were 

 potentially in conflict with each other. One purpose is commer- 

 cialization of Federal research and development. 



