220 Gokhale and Lajpat Rai [1908 



a belief in ultimate success would give, or even the bitterness which is 

 also the force of hatred and despair. He told me that he did not like 

 being called a moderate, but if he represents anything that can be 

 called extreme, there is small chance for India. I asked him what in 

 his view was the end to be aimed at. He said, ' Of course we hope 

 some day for complete independence, but that is far away. Perhaps in 

 ten years' time we may get Provincial self-Government, but for that 

 we must educate ourselves, and the educated class is very small.' I 

 asked him what means he proposed to use in order to obtain it. He 

 disclaimed an appeal to force in any shape. ' What could we do,' he 

 said, 'against Kitchener and the army?' He would not hear even of 

 obstruction. ' It is no use,' he said, ' trying to overthrow the present 

 administration until we have something to put in its place.' Language 

 of this sort may be true, as it certainly is prudent, but it is not the lan- 

 guage of revolution. I asked him whether he expected to convert 

 English people, or the English Government by appeals to reason and 

 justice? He said he believed that Morley had a scheme of extending 

 the representative character of the councils, and they would have to be 

 content with that at present. He had been a great believer in Morley, 

 and had read all his writings on liberty, but he feared that Morley was 

 more for personal than national liberty. I told him Morley was a 

 broken reed. ' In that,' he said, ' my friend here,' pointing to Lajpat 

 Rai, ' will agree with you.' On this I turned to Lajpat and asked him 

 to give me his opinion. Lajpat is a different sort of man altogether, 

 much more purely Oriental, but inferior in breeding, and very much in 

 intelligence to Gokhale. He has a poor command of English, and it 

 seemed to me a confused mind, timid too, and deprecatory in manner. 

 It was difficult to see in him anything that the Indian Government could 

 possibly have been afraid of, or that Morley can have thought it neces- 

 sary to arrest by a lettre de cachet and deport him without trial as a 

 danger to India. His views were less pacific than Gokhale's, but 

 all without precision. ' I know nothing,' he said, more than once, 

 ' about India in general, only about my own province, Punjaub.' Per- 

 haps if he had been alone with me he would have had the courage to 

 speak out, hut he was afraid of his companion, and I frightened him 

 when I asked him what chance there was of the native army taking the 

 National side. We had a long discussion about the attitude of the 

 Indian Moslems, and I told them how I had tried to influence the last 

 in 1884, to join the Hindoos in the Congress movement, but they as- 

 sured me the Moslems were all against them now, and Gokhale seemed 

 to think that they would be a danger in any reconstruction of India on 

 a national basis, because, though they were much less numerous, and 

 less rich, they were more united. ' All we hope for is,' he said, ' that 

 the movement of self-government in Turkey and Egypt may spread to 



