MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



39 



27 August, 1919.] 



MR. THOMAS Cr GOODWIN. 



[Continued. 



that by the War Office, who took 300 acres for an 

 aerodrome. I then bought a farm of my own. The 

 764 acre farm was at Stoke Grange in Shropshire. 



6132. From that wide experience do you consider 

 we can produce sufficient cereals in this country for 

 home requirements, independent of foreign imports? 

 We can greatly increase the present production if 

 sufficient capital and enterprise were employed in 

 agriculture. 



6133. You think that we could do it? I do not 

 think we could absolutely clear it, but I do think we 

 could greatly increase the present production. 



6134. Could we do it in time? A great deal depends 

 upon the methods that are carried out for the en- 

 couragement of the man to do it. It is a very diffi- 

 cult matter to tell what we can do. 



6135. Could you suggest any method whereby it 

 could be done? At the present time we certainly 

 need a great deal more encouragement and a grea't 

 deal more confidence given to us to cover some of 

 the risk we have. 



6136. In what way? The risk on the arable farm 

 is very great at the present time chiefly owing to the 

 rise in the cost of labour and everything connected 

 with the production of cereals. 



6137. What guarantee do you ask for? You refer 

 in paragraph (6) to some guarantee ? Certainly, 

 nothing below the present guarantee; I think it 

 should be over the present guarantee. Of course we 

 cannot tell what the cost and the conditions of 

 labour are going to be in the future, but in the present 

 circumstances it certainly should be over the present 

 guarantee. 



38. Do you mean your confidence is shaken in the 

 stability, as it were, of the industry itself?! think 

 that the confidence of the farmers generally is shaken 

 to some extent owing to the fact that they are not 

 sure, as to what is going to take place in the future 

 in respect to the cereal crops, because, as i* obvious 

 to anyone, there is a greater risk in the growing of 

 cereals owing to the steasons and all the rest of it 

 than there is in some other methods of farming. 



6139. Your confidence seems to be shaken anyhow 



in the apparent promises of the Government? At 



the present time we have nothing very definite as to 

 the future, have we? 



6140. I think you will agree that farming during 

 tho past few years has 1 been very remunerative? 



has certainly been better than over before, but 

 up to the time the war broke out I do not think 

 the agriculturist has ever had a sufficient return on 

 hi capital. In respect of the production of milk, 

 may s;iy 1 .supplied th.- Liverpool hospitals and 

 infirmaries with practically all the milk they wanted. 

 Then I stopped because my farm was sold to the 

 County Council. I then had to consider the question 

 ns to whether it was going to pay me to continue 

 during the remaining part of my time at that farm to 

 produce the winter milk. My contract was for over 

 200 gallons a day for the winter, and 250 a day for 

 tho summer. I went into the question very fully in 

 the Autumn of 1913 apart from the need to keep 

 up the fertility of the farm and I came to the 

 conclusion at once that it did not. As a going con- 

 <! -n with tli<> need for keeping up the high fertility 

 of tho farm that it had attained then, it was a dif- 

 ferent matter, but simply as to the question of pro- 

 ducing tho milk and whether it would pay me better 

 to do that or to discontinue it, I came to the conclu- 

 sion that it di'd not and at once sold my dairy cattle. 



6141. Prior to the war the industry was fairly 

 remunerative ? Yes, but everything, of course, de- 

 pended upon tho men 'engaged "in it as it did in every 

 other industry. It was just the few heat men that 

 were, perhaps, making a living, a great many others, 

 in my opinion, were not doing so. 



6142. On what evidence do you base your apparent 

 assumption that during the next few years there will 

 bo a tendency for the industry to become unremunorn- 

 tive? -If wo get the prices of cereals down through 

 the bringing over of corn here from foreign countries. 

 of course, that will materially affect the position 

 hi-ro. and tho fart that we, with present costs, shall 

 not be able to compete with thorn. 



6143. Do you think there is a likelihood of prices 

 falling during tho noxt year or two? I would not 

 ay that the prices may fall very much during the 



next year or two, but the farmer has got to look a 

 long way ahead. He cannot reckon on one or two 

 years in the course of his farming. He has to look 

 a long way ahead, or he may find himself very 

 materially wrong. 



6144. In paragraph (/) you have someth:ng to 

 say about the Wages Board. Could you tell the 

 Commission how often hours have been altered by 

 the Wages Board in your district since the inception of 

 the Board? I could not give you definitely the 

 number of times there has been an alteration in the 

 hours, but during the last twelve months we have had 

 continued alterations in the hours. 



6145. By the Wages Board? Yes. 



6145A. You cannot tell us how often? In the first 

 place we had them reduced to 61. 



6146. When was that? I have not the exact date, 

 but it is within the last twelve months. Then we 

 had them reduced to 60 I am speaking of our own 

 country. 



6147. Since the inception of the Board am I not 

 correct in saying that the hours have only been altered 

 twice by the Board? I think it is more than that. 



6148. I am asking you ? Are you taking into con- 

 sideration the half-holiday because that was one 

 alteration? 



6149. No, I am dealing with the general working 

 hours? I think they were altered about three times, 

 taking the half-holiday as one alteration. 



6150. Quite. That bears out my statement. Apart 

 from the 6J hours' day they have only been altered 



twice. Am i correct in making that statement? 



Yes, I think you are, but I cannot say definitely as to 

 that. 



6151. So that the statement with regard to the con- 

 tinued alteration of hours by the Wages Board is not 

 quite correct when you look into it? From the dairy- 

 man's point of view it is disastrous that we should 

 get three alterations of hours in twelve months. 



6152. The Wages Board has been in existence more 

 than twelve months? Yes, but any alteration they 

 made had not the same detrimental effect previously 

 as it has had since. 



6153. In paragraph (g) you talk about the lessening 

 output of work? Yes. 



6154. Could you give the Commission' any concrete 

 examples of what you mean by that? There is a lack 

 of interest in the work now. We never seemed to get 

 that lack of interest in the old days. There is also 

 a lack of efficiency; we cannot get the same efficient 

 men able to perform and do the uork as we could in 

 the old days. \Vlieii the old men pass off we cannot 

 replace them with equally good men. 



6155. Do you think the war has had any effect? I 

 certainly think this was going on to some extent prior 

 to the war, but I do not think that the young men that 

 are coming back, or many of them, show the interest 

 that we expected them to do in their work, nor are 

 they as efficient as we expected them to be. 



6156. Have you fewer men on your farm now than 

 you had prior to the war? I was not farming on my 

 present farm prior to the war. I have more men on 

 my farm at the present time than used to be cm- 

 ployed on the farm prior to tho war, but that does 

 not say much, because it is under very different con- 

 ditions now. Speaking generally, there are less men 

 on the farms to-day than there were before the war. 



6157. Did you read Mr. Lloyd George's speech in 

 the House of Commons the other day ? Yes. 



6158. Did you notice where he stated that there 

 was only one industry which had increased its out- 

 put? Yes, I noticed that. 



6159. That industry was? Agriculture. 



6160. That is rather remarkable in view of this 



lessened output statement of yours, is it not? It may 



be so, but at the same time I am speaking of the great 

 dairying county of Cheshire in particular. 



<j!61. Tho Prime Minister's statement would not 

 refer, in your opinion, to your particular neighbour- 

 hood ? It might on the whole, but at the same time you 

 must always boar in mind the fact that the increased 

 output is not owing to tho labour that the farmer em- 

 ploys. To a large extent it may not be owing in fact, 

 I do not think it is owing to the paid labour the 

 farmer employs. I think it is owing to his own exer- 

 ting and that of his family. A great deal of the 



