MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



43 



27 August, 1919.] 



MR. THOMAS C. GOODWIN. 



[Continued. 



you get something very much more than the 

 guarantee in the Corn Production Act? Yes, but 

 on last year's prices have we got more than the price 

 fixed for last year? 



6255. Yes? Not that I am aware of; I have not 

 received any yet. 



6256. Would you advocate a guaranteed minimum, 

 allowing the farmer the play of the market above 

 the minimum? Yes. 



6257. Bo you think a guarantee will be necessary 

 under present conditions and the probable conditions 

 of the next few years if no pressure is brought upon 

 the farmer to crop in certain directions if he is 

 allowed absolute freedom of cropping? Yes, if you 

 want to keep the arable land under cultivation. 



6258. Supposing the Government allow you to crop 

 the "land as you like and do not bring any pressure 

 at all to bear upon you to induce you to crop in one 

 way or another, do you still think that a guarantee 

 is necessary? Certainly, if you wish to keep the 

 arable land under cultivation ; otherwise a large pro- 

 portion will go down to grass. 



259. You would say to the Government : " If 

 you want to increase the area of tillage or if you want 

 to maintain the present area you must give us a 

 guarantee " ? Yes. 



6260. " But if you allow us to do as we like then we 

 do not ask for a guarantee": is that your view? 

 Unless there is some guarantee for the next few years 

 in regard to cereals a large proportion of the arable 

 land will go down to grass. 



6261. So long as the State does not complain about 

 that, would the farmer complain if he did that with- 

 out any guarantee? What would be the use of him 

 complaining? 



6262. I am not suggesting that it would be of much 

 use, but would he complain if he were allowed to d6 

 exactly as he liked? I cannot answer for farmers 

 generally, but BO far as my own point of view is con- 

 cerned I should not consider that it was of any use. 



6263. Your view is that the risks of tillage farming 

 have so much increased that a guarantee is absolutely 

 necessary if the farmer is to maintain the present 

 area of tillage? Yes. 



6264. And you consider that the guarantee ought to 

 be over the present guarantee, which is 75s. 6d.? 

 Yes certainly not below. 



6265. Otherwise the farmer will not maintain his 

 present area and he will certainly not increase it? 

 That is so. 



6266. With regard to hours, strictly speaking there 

 is no Order of the Board which has affected the right 

 of the farmer to contract with his labour for any 

 number of hours he considers necessary for the proper 

 conduct of his business? That is so. 



6267. As matter of fact, the Board have altered 

 the number of hours on three occasions in respect of 

 which the minimum rate is paid? Yes. 



6268. I understand from one of your answers that 

 that alteration has brought about an unwillingness on 

 the part of the worker to work longer hours than 

 those hours which are fixed for the minimum wage? 

 Yes, it has. 



6269. You mean if you offer a labourer a sum which 

 is at least equivalent to the minimum rate plus over- 

 time rates for extra hours you cannot get him to 

 work more than the 64 hours in the summer? Of 

 course a great deal depends upon the men and the 

 masters. In some cases it can be managed all right, 

 but what I specially refer to is the fact that these 

 alterations in hours do create certainly with a 

 certain section of the men a great deal of unrest. I 

 think that it is the few that unfortunately cause 

 trouble with the others. If the body of the men 

 generally were left alone to make amicable arrange- 

 ments with their employers as between master and 

 man it would be very much better. 



0270. Strictly speaking there is nothing to prevent 

 master and man making any arrangements they like 

 to make now. but you say the issue of the Board'c 

 Order has made it more difficult for those arrange- 

 ments to be entered into?- V PS . The same co"r i; Hons 

 do not prevail on every farm ; they are different 

 everywhere almost and in some cases where you get a 

 lot of single men. through the isolation of the farm 

 and other things they get dissatisfied; that is where 

 the greatest difficulty cornea in. 



6271. You say you had no difficulty in getting men 

 to work overtime before the war, but there is a reluc- 

 tance to do it now? Yes. 



6272. Will you explain that a little? I think it is 

 because they are getting higher wages in Cheshire 

 and they are quite satisfied with the day rates and 

 are content to go on easily and comfortably instead 

 of exerting themselves more to earn the extra money. 



6273. With regard to the lessened output, your 

 view, I understand, is that the increase of output 

 in the industry generally, which was referred to by 

 the Prime Minister, is due very largely to the 

 enormous amount of machinery which has been used 

 during the war period? Yes, to the machinery and 

 to the exertions of the farmer and his own family. 



6274. You think that the output of the individual 

 labourer is undoubtedly less than it was before the 

 war? I do. 



6275. Mr. Parker: What capital per acre is neces- 

 sary in your district for proper farming? Anything 

 from 26 to 30 per acre at the present time. 



6276. Do you think that farmers generally have 

 that amount of capital embarked in their farms? 

 I think in Cheshire that the farms are just as well 

 capitalised as they are in any county. 



6277. You think they are commanding that amount 

 of capital? Yes, I think there is that amount of 

 capital in the farms. Whether the farmers are pro- 

 viding it themselves is a very difficult matter to find 

 out. 



6278. Are your rates increasing very much? Very 

 much. 



6279. You put your rent and rates at 2 10s. 3d. 

 an acre? Yes. 



6280. What proportion of that is rates? 5s. 3d. 



6281. Are they going up still more? My rates are 

 slightly more this year than last. 



6282. They are generally getting higher? Yes, the 

 rates are getting higher as everyone knows; they 

 are going up. 



6283. Mr. NichoUit: Do the figures dealing with 

 potatoes in your Table No. 1 and Table No. 2 apply to 

 the same farm? No. 



6284. They are for different farms? Yes, different 

 farms; one is for the light-land farm and the other 

 is in respect of the stronger farm. 



628.5. Which is the strong one? The first one. 



6286. That is really strong land? Not absoluteiv 

 strong. You cannot grow potatoes on absolutely 

 strong land, but it is stronger land than, the other; 

 the second one is very light, sandv sub-soil. You 

 have the costs of the growing of wheat on the light 

 land and the costs on the heavier land, and the cost 

 comes out lighter on the heavier land than on the 

 light land because vou have to put more into the 

 light land with a less yield. 



6287. With regard to the drilling and covering up, 

 how many horses do you work with your apparatus? 

 Two horses. 



6288. And holeing up too? Yes. 



6289. And scuffling? One for the scuffling. 



6290. TV>r doing one row at a time? Yes. 



6291. You nlwavs do one TOW only? Yes. 



6292. Your land is too strong to go beyond that? 

 Yes. 



6293. With regard to the manur'njr and the carb- 

 ing and spreading at 2s. 6d. a ton, 3 an acre, do 

 you not consider that rather high? T5vervthing de- 

 nends upon how far your homestead is from your 

 land. 



6294. I quite agree? It is not too high in this case. 

 6296. How far would it be from the homestead? 



Over two miles. 



6296. It is hardly fair to give us the cost in that 

 ease, because the cost would be verv hifh where you 



' hove to cart a distance of two miles? That is so. 



6297. Do vou suggest to the Commission that with 

 regard to this manuring, carting and spreading you 

 cannot eet the men now to do it piecework? No, 

 Vou cannot get it done piecework in our county now. 

 In 1915 T had over 200 acres done piecework manured 

 and carted and some of it a mile and a half to two 

 miles nwnv. We based our piecework rates in that 

 case on an average. 



6298. FTave vou frot. the pnme tvne flf man now that 

 you had in, say, 1915, or did your best men go from 



