27 August, 1919.] 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 

 MR. THOMAS C. GOODWIN. 



47 



[Continued. 



take, where it has followed on from father to son ; 

 and those are being rapidly brought into the market 

 and the rent doubled in value when they have to 

 purchase. 



6407. Then taking your Table No. 1 again : Manure 

 20 tons at 15s. Is not that a high rate for manure!' 

 I do not think so. I know of cases where.it has 

 been a great deal more where farmers have had to 

 pay more for manure. 



6408. Is this the market value? The market value 

 would be rather higher than that at the present time 

 if we had to buy the manure. 



6409. What would you be able to do with this manure 

 if you did not apply it to the land ; could you sell it 

 in your district? Yes. 



6410. You told a member of the Commission that 

 there was a falling off in (the efficiency of the workers 

 in your employ? Yes. 



6411. Do you find the deterioration in the older 

 men or in the younger men? Not quite to the same 

 extent in the older men. 



6412. Do you find any at all in the older men? I 

 do not think they have realised that the high rate of 

 wages demand higher service. 



6413. So that chiefly it is amongst the younger 

 men, is it? I think it is amongst the older hands; 

 they are not quite the same as the younger men. Of 

 course I think it may pass. 



6414. To what do you attribute this falling off ; 

 how do you account for this indifference in the younger 

 men? I think, as I said before, that the war has a 

 great bearing on it ; the effects of the war have some- 

 thing to do with it. 



6415. Would they be men who have been in the 

 army? Some of them. 



6415A. I think you told us that the increased pro- 

 duction was due in the main to the special efforts of 

 the farmers and their families? And machinery im- 

 proved methods of machinery. 



6416. Does that mean that the farmers in pre- 

 war times were indifferent?- -No, not at all. 



6417. You told us, I think, that you could not get 

 men to do piecework? Not as we used to. 



6418. Would the piecework that you usually got 

 prior to war time bo as efficiently done as day work? 

 I should say perhaps not in all cases quite as well 

 done; but taking it on the whole, there is no reason 

 for complaint. 



6419. Is not there a tendency as a rule to scamper 

 over piecework and get it done? You may have that 

 in some cases; but I never had any great difficulty 

 in that way whe'- I was working on piecework, as 

 long as the men could be paid. 



6420. It means more supervision, does it not? 

 Certainly, you do want some supervision ; but you 

 want supervision in day work. 



6421. So that what you gain by piecework you lose 

 by paying supervision, do not you? No, I do not 

 think so not to that extent. 



6422. What wages do you pay to the men that you 

 employ at the present time? My men are receiving 

 at the present time 50s. a week, house and garden 

 rent freo, and thfir milk at 4d. a quart. There are 

 a lot of extras; I do not know whether you wish me 

 to enumerate them. 



6423. That is considerably over the minimum, is 

 it not? It is over the minimum for Cheshire; but 

 there is an arrangement come to, a properly drawn 

 up agreement at the present time between the 

 Workers' Union in Cheshire and the Farmers' Union, 

 whereby 48s. is fixed as the price for 64 .lours all tho 

 year round for first grade men, and that is being 

 carried out, I think, loyally. I think at the present 

 time there is a deputation of equal numbers of workers 

 of the Cheshire Wages Board and employers, meeting 

 tin- Central Wages Board with a view to pressvnp 

 the whole of the question that the men do not wish 

 for any alteration from that; that is for winter and 

 summer. 



6424. Do you mind telling the Commission what 

 capital you use on this 200 acre farm? 



UN8 



6425. The Chairman: He has answered that? I 

 said 25 to 30 was about what the capital was on 

 these farms. 



6426. Mr. Prosser Jones : How would that compare 

 with the capital sunk in the larger farm per acre? 

 The capital on the larger farm would not be quite 

 as big. Of course, that was at a time when the 

 value was considerably less. 



6427. Would tho increased capital invested in this 

 farm account for the fact that you are now the 

 owner and not the tenant farmer? To some extent; 

 but the values have altered altogether; it requires 

 now an increased capital to stock a farm. In stock- 

 ing a farm to-day it would take that amount of 

 capital, whereas in 1915 it did not take that amount 

 of capital. 



6428. Is not it an increased capital from re- 

 valuation what we call " watered " capital? You 

 must take the capital at what it would cost you to 

 start. 



6429. But it does not mean that you actually go to 

 the Bank and raise a certain sum of money? I 

 should have to do so if I were starting the farm. 



6430. J/r. Thomas Henderson : I gather that you 

 are a believer in" keeping up tillage at as high a 

 point as possible? Yes. 



6431. For what reason? Do you mean am I a 

 believer in keeping up the present acreage of tillage 

 from my own personal standpoint of farming? 



6432. Yes? Personally, I should not keep up the 

 present acreage of tillage, if I considered my own 

 interests. 



6433. I understand you advocate the increase of 

 tillage or maintenance of tillage for the national 

 interest? Yes. 



6434. As an insurance against war risk? Yes, and 

 against the nation again being in the position it has 

 boon in the past. 



6435. Do you think that the present amount of 

 tillage is quite sufficient for the purpose? I think 

 it could be made sufficient. At present, of course, 

 there is a lot of land really that is not suitable for 

 tillage. At the same time, there is a large quantity 

 of land, in my opinion, in the better-tillage counties 

 that is in grass that is, not good grass land that 

 might be turned into tillage. 



6436. Not necessarily under wheat? Yes. 



6437. Are you aware that it is estimated that it 

 would take about 14 million acres to feed this country 

 very, very inefficiently? Yes. 



6438. That is a long way above the present maxi- 

 mum tillage, is it not? Yes. 



6439. So long as the farmer had a free hand and 

 was allowed to till his land according to his own 

 notions, that would secure the national interest, as 

 you describe it? Yes. 



6440. How does that affect your claim for a 

 guarantee? On the face of it a good deal of that 

 land might be much better employed under tillage 

 than in growing wheat? Yes; but that would be to 

 the advantage of growing wheat in time of necessity. 



6441 I quite agree ; but the guarantee would have 

 to be paid during time of peace? Yes. 



6442. How would it affect that in your opinion? 

 Do you propose that the farmer ghould get his 

 guarantee on his acreage tilled and not on the crop 

 produced, or would you confine the guarantee to 

 wheat and oats? On tho crop. 



6443. Whatever it was? Yes. 



6444. That is to say, you contemplate an extension 

 of the policy of the Corn Production Act? Yes. 



6445. You would not confine it merely to wheat 

 and oats? No, not to wheat and: oats. 



6446. Then you said in reply to Mr. Prosser Jones 

 that at present the standard rate of wages fol 

 Cheshire is 48s. for a54 hours week? Yes; that is all 

 the year round. 



6447. And I think you said in reply to someone 

 else, that more or less the standard wage before the 

 war was 21s. per week? I was in Shropshire at that 

 time. 



6448. What about Cheshire? In Cheshire, I think, 

 it would be slightly higher. 



