KuVAI. i t>MM|s.s.li>\ '\ At. Kid 1.11 UK. 



MK. TlloMAH C. OixtliWIN. 



044 1 J. C/i.iiriii<iii : You said from Ite. to 24.. befoie 

 th wari 1 Ye. 1 think that would, generally npek- 

 ing, apply to Cheshire as well. 



6450. Mr. Thomat Henderson : Take it at lMn.'r 

 Ye; that would bo for the head man. 



. Anil ii|i|iarriitly they were in tin- Inibil .n 

 woih.ui)> oMTtime quite freely then!'- There was not 

 much overtime then, with the exception ot harvi^i- 



J. I was asking you if they ekt-<l out their wagon 

 by working overtime in those days when their wges 



E - They were more willing to <!<> so. 



. Naturally they urn-. I put it to y>u H you 



_;.-ttmn Li 1 -, you Would be much more willing to 

 work overtime than when gettin_ ^ 



! Might 1 ask what their wages were for over- 

 litne in those days when the standard wage was at 

 22.P It was generally lumped together so nun h 

 per harvest, and BO on. 



\V-.ulil yon mind giving us the figures:- In 

 my own cii I used to pay from '2 to i'3 extra 

 according to what the harvests were, for the different 

 ham ' 



6456. Whait othor pieces of work wore taken on 

 the overtime l.a.-i- : what else was clone by way of 

 overtime:- There would be only the Sunday milking. 

 The Sunday milking was included in the weekly wage 

 at that time. 



6457. I am in some difficulty lien-. Yon -ay that 

 overtime was confined entirely to the harvest, with 

 the exception of Sunday milking:' Sunday Bilking 

 was included then in the weekly wage. 



6458. In that case overtime did not apply? No. 



6459. What is your complaint against the men not 

 working overtime"? Are they refusing to work over- 

 time in harvest now? They do not like the overtime 

 in the week besides the harvest time, if they can 

 avoid it. 



6460. What overtime in the week working on 

 what?- There is the milking from the Saturday at 

 noon and the Sunday overtime then ; and there is a 

 certain amount of overtime practically every night 

 in the week. Your hours of milking for your dairy 

 OOWB, if you are <to keep them up to the highest pro- 

 duction, "must be kept somewhere within reasonable 

 limit*. 



6461. I think I see where the confusion between us 

 is. These jobs were done as part of the ordinary 

 day's work before, so it is really the shortening of 

 the hours that you are complaining about? Yea. _ 



6462. I thought you were referring to overtime 

 which is paid on a different basis. Have the men 

 actually refused to work the overtime?- In some 



we have difficulty in getting the overtime done. 



6463. Actual refusal on the part of the men?- 

 Ye. I have no definite case so far as my own per- 

 sonal farm is concerned to put before you at the time. 

 I know there are cases. 



6464. Would you yourself attach very much im- 

 portance to it, seeing that it has not happened in 

 v.nir experience? Of course to give a definite opinion 

 on that, you want 4o know the conditions, do not yon P 



6465. Naturally; but it has not happened in yoin 

 ience?-Not in my experience. 



0466. You have said repeatedly that there is a good 

 deal of unrest among the labourers in your area, but I 

 nee that in paragraph (/) of your /<>.'< i.< you -a 

 no far as your district is concerned the men are hat's 

 n the question of hours? Yes. May I point 

 out that that agreement that I have referred to has 

 only recently been made; it has allayed the unrest for 

 the moment'. 



6467. That is to say, the unrest is settling down? 

 Ye, in our part of tlie district. 



640**. Now with regnrd to the question of tin 

 i; ..f farm" to which yon referred, yon made -the 

 |M)int. I think, quite legitimately, that the i 

 production i* certainly increased by farmers having 

 n hae the farms:- Yes. 



6489. Judging from what you juiid just now, thnt 

 rather etil values? Yes. 



6470. On the other hand, yon pointed out that there 

 " no question thnt the occupying owner was much 

 the more efficient tiller of the noil?- Yes. 



: How do those two factors balance each othn - 



When he is occupying owner, he knows he will not 



I..- disturbed in the biuue way as ha may be under tiiv 

 prevent land tenure and lose as the result of his own 

 . i^ies during a iiumbur ol year*. 



M\ jHiint is this, tha: iln- etlicu-iu \ <.; 

 -\-ti-m ol occupying ownership must certainly tend 

 to pull dim n the cost of production obviously? To 

 pull down the c < -i <>l JH <.<|uc -tiun r 



6173. If the occupying owner in a much moi. 

 , i. nt person much more alert to look after his own 

 interest, it is much to his advantage to bring down 

 the cost of production and thus increase hw profit .- 

 Yes. But the buying on the present price* increases 

 ihe cost of production. 



I. What is the effect ol tin- interplay ot these 

 t\vo factors:- How far does one counterbalance the 

 other? Of course, we should want the cxprrien^p ol 

 a tew years to test that. I have not that e\p. 

 at the present time. 



(itr.'i. Then with regard to the cost of production of 

 milk to which you referred. You mentioned Minn- 

 Li verpool contract? Yes. 



lil'l). I suppose you would get that contract on a 

 Ka-i- of competition in the nutrket?- It was in this 

 way : The Liverpool Corporation wanted their milk 

 from approved farms approved dairies, and it was 

 in the face of competition. At the same time it v 

 a very limited number of farms that could come up 

 to their requirements. Mini in the competition it did 

 not affect so much the price as the condition- under 

 which it was produced. 



6477. Still, the fact that the competition was 

 limited would certainly lead to the contract being 

 put through at a better rate? It was cut fine. 



<;17<. Confined competition would put up the 

 price slightly? Yes. 



lil"(i. At any rate, the point is this: the price w.c.s 

 fixed by open competition, and vet you allege that 

 that price was unremuneratu V- No; 1 do not think 

 I said that. I carried this work on for eight years, 

 but then I came to the point when mv farm was -old 

 and there was no need to keep up that fertility for 

 the following year that 1 had to remain in that farm 

 ind that autumn I w:is faced with a position of this 

 sort, that I had a large number of cows just on profit 

 and coming in that I could put on the market, and 

 I calculated on the basis of what their prodmtion 

 would be, the cost of the food to feed them with and 

 all the incidental costs, nd I came to the conclusion 

 that when the need for keeping up the fertility was 

 gone it would not pay me to keep them. 



6480. Just for that year? Yes; of course, I was 

 not dairying on the arable farm ; and certainly I 

 should not be prepared Again to go in for the heavy 

 work that I had with the winter and summer milk 

 production. I produce milk on a fairly large scale 

 now. hut it is not so much winter milk production. 

 It is a great deal of work very often for a very little 

 result. 



6481. I quite agree, but my point is that here is 

 case where you have only the home producer to force. 

 and competition has that effect? Yes. 



0482. Somebody referred to Mr. Lloyd George - 

 statement about the maintained productive -in 

 farming during the war. You pointed out that in 

 dairy fanning you thought it was due to the farmer's 

 sons and daughters? Yen. nnd to an increase of 

 machinery. 



6483. Do you apply that to arable farming as well? 



Of course.' the machinery would play a larger part 

 on the arable farm. 



c. HI. There were considerable difficulties with 

 regard to machinery during the war. were there not? 

 \ *! deal more thnn ever before. 



i;i-.Y What do you consider a fair return on your 

 capital in your first paragraph here what rate pet 

 c cut - Not li-ss than 10 p.-i 



Would that be absolutely clear profit, or have 

 you to take all your incidental expenses out of that - 

 Is that to be your gross return on cnpitnl or you? 

 net return?!" am afrnid we shall not see tho day 

 when we pet the net rettirn. 



" You mean tho 10 per cent, is the grow 

 return? Yes. 



64W. Mr. (Srrrn : You have not a balance sheet to 

 present us w'th, have you?- No. 



64 WV Could you give us any idea of the compara- 

 tive figures between your profit per acre before the 



