MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



15 



26 Auguit, 1919.] 



MR. ALBERT BUCKLB. 



[Continued. 



must also give a guarantee on the other side not ouly 

 to my mind with regard to acreage but also with 

 regard to wages. It does not seem to be unreason- 

 able to say to a farmer : " If I give you the guarantee 

 that you are asking for, of BO much on your wheat, 

 you should produce the acreage I want, and you 

 should also show me that you have spent so much in 

 wages on that acreage." How does that strike you? 

 I think it would depend to a great extent upon 

 what price other cereals were making. A farmer is 

 going to grow what pays him best even if he has the 

 guarantee. If we get the guarantee of 70s. a 

 quarter for wheat we should still not get the acreage 

 if barley is making anything like (Xte. or 100s.; they 

 will hold it back for barley. 



5467. Then the assumption is that if the guarantee 

 is given we shall not get the guarantee of the wheat ? 

 Not unless it is sufficiently high. 



5468. I think I am right in suggesting that you 

 believe, with the exception of milk, in all agricul- 

 tural commodities being guaranteed. I think that is 

 the suggestion in your precis? Yes. 



5469. Do you not think that if farmers, instead of 

 going in for wheat or cereal growing, were to turn, 

 as you suggest, to producing beef, and they were all 

 putting beef on the market, there would soon be a 

 glut of it? Yes. 



5470. In that event, is there not a chance that 

 these farmers would then conic along and say, " We 

 want a guarantee on beef, or else we shall turn 

 round to cereal growing instead of beef producing " ? 

 What I said was that they would produce beef in 

 preference to milk. 



5471. Under present conditions? Yes. 



547IA. Mr. Parker : You represent the Cleveland 

 Chamber of Agriculture? Yes. 



5472. Has the land in Cleveland district become 

 foul during the war through want of labour and 

 manure? Yes, there is no doubt that a lot of it 

 has. 



5473. Do you anticipate a yield of four quarters an 

 acre before the land is brought back to its pre-war 

 fertility:' No, I think that at the present time that 

 is above the average of this harvest. I do not think 

 it will yield four quarters to the acre this harvest. 



5474. Until the land is perfectly clean and brought 

 back to its previous state of fertility, you do not 

 think that four quarters an acre will be the yield? 

 No, I do not. 



5475. I think you said to one member of the Com- 

 mission that you allowed nothing in your schedule 

 of the cost of production for interest on the farmer's 

 capital ? No. 



5476. Would you mind tolling me what amount of 

 capital per acre is employed in your district 

 generally ? 



Chairman : He has answered that 20 an acre. 



5477. Mr. Smith : 20 an acre would be more 

 capital than was necessary in pre-war times, would 

 it not? Undoubtedly. 



5478. What proportion would it be douhle? Yes, 

 I should think it is about double. 



5479. Do you- think the farmers to-day are handi- 

 capped by the absence of capital? I should not 

 think so. 



5480. You think that they have got enough capital 

 for their farms? I should say so, on the whole. 



5481. Do -we understand that your farm is 380 

 acres? Yes. 



5482. How long have you had the farm? Twelve 

 years. 



5483. I think you stated that the farmer will want 

 some guarantee in regard to the future in order to 

 give him confidence? That is so. 



5484. You also stated that the farmers had been 

 buying their own farms? Yes, some of them. 



6485. At fairly good prices, I think? Yes. 



5486. Do you not think that the two positions are 

 somewhat contradictory that the farmer by pur- 

 chasing his farm is showing a confidence in the future 

 which does not suggest the necessity of a guarantee? 

 Yes, perhaps that is so to a certain extent. I do 

 not know whether it is justified or not. I think 



2532'.! 



that many of them who have purchased their farms 

 may iind themselves in a worse position than they 

 were as tenants. 



5487. Still we must give these people credit for 

 knowing their own business? You asked my opinion, 

 and that is my opinion. 



5438. Farmers are practical men, are they not? I 

 should hope so. 



5489. Most of them of lifelong experience? Yes. 



5490. And therefore capable of judging how far 

 they are justified in purchasing their own farms. Does 

 not that suggest a great confidence in the future on 

 their part? One strong point is that they naturally 

 do not like being turned out of their holdings. Many 

 of them are worse off I know than they were as tenant 

 farmers. They have purchased their farms, and pos- 

 sibly borrowed a proportion of their capital, and they 

 are actually having to pay as much in the shape of 

 interest as they had to pay in rent previously. 



5491. Do you state that they have borrowed capital 

 to purchase their farms? In many cases no doubt. 



5492. Does not that show greater confidence still 

 than if they had purchased them with their own 

 money? I suppose in many cases they would be 

 actually paying more rent now than they were before. 



5493. A man working on borrowed capital is work- 

 ing in a worse position than the man who is working 

 on his own capital ? I mean those who had borrowed u 

 proportion of the purchase money, I do not say 11 of 

 it; I do not think they would be so foolish as to 

 borrow the whole of it. 



5494. In the case of men who have bought their 

 farms with their own money that would suggest that 

 the industry had been prosperous up to this time, 

 would it not? Yes, you would naturally conclude so. 

 With regard to this question of security of tenure, if 

 a man has his own farm he knows that he can do as 

 he likes with it, whereas as a tenant he never knows 

 when he is 'going to be turned out or whether he is 

 going to get the benefit of h : s own improvements. As 

 an owner he knows he will get the benefit of his 

 improvements. I would buy my own farm or any other 

 farm to-day even if I could only get 4 per cent, 

 interest on my money just to get the security of my 

 tenure and the value of my improvements. 



.".I'.i'i. M-iy I take it you are in favour of security 

 of tenure for the farmer? Yes, certainly. 



5496. And that that would result in better farming? 

 I think so, undoubtedly. 



5497. Would you agree that the profits of the agri- 

 cultural industry in the last four years have been 

 high? They have been higher than usual, I am quite 

 prepared to admit that, but as compared with other 

 businesses not so high. We have made hundreds where 

 other people have probably made thousands. 



5498. You are thinking of shipping now, are you 

 not a -Yes. 



5499. Do you suggest that these figures you have 

 submitted to us are actual costs or are . they 

 estimates? They are estimates. 



5500. Therefore, it does not follow that they are 

 exact? No, they might vary a trifle, hut they are an 

 honest attempt to arrive at the truth. 



5501. Do you not think if the public are to he asked 

 to give a guarantee so far as prices are concerned which 

 might increase tho cost of food that they will want 

 some definite information as to the condition of the 

 industry before they can sanction a proposal of that 

 description? The present guarantee would not in- 

 crease the cost of food. 



5502. It would as compared to pre-war times it 

 would be a new departure in otir national life, would 

 it, not? Yes. 



5503. Do you not agree that the only real test as 

 to the actual cost is the annual profit and loss balance 

 sheet of a farm? T admit that is the only real test 

 because it is most difficult to arrive at the actual 

 cost even with the best of accounts of any particular 

 crop. T mean it is most difficult to arrive at the 

 profit on a crop of wheat or a crop of potatoes, be- 

 cause you have so many broken days of work from 

 which there is no return, and you have also hedging 

 and ditching and road-making, and so forth, to take 

 into consideration, so that the real test is tho balance 

 sheet of the whole. 



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