MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



26 Augiut, 1919.] 



MR. ALBERT BUCKLE. 



[Continutd. 



5229. I want to touch on that point too. You say 

 they are getting plenty. Tho minimum rate of wages 

 in Vorkshire is how much;' 47s. a week for the horse- 

 men or stockmen. 



5230. That is for the customary hours, not 54 

 hours? No, it is the customary hours. 



5231. With the customary hours he does his cus- 

 tomary duties of attending to his horses and stock; 

 so there is no difficulty there? No, but you cannot 

 get a man for that minimum wage. 



5232. Whatever minimum wage you get, includes 

 extra hours for attending to his cattle. The feeding 

 and cleaning are included in his customary hours, 

 and do not count as overtime and arc not paid for as 

 overtime ?- -No ; that is not so in the case of the 

 cowman and stockman. 



5233. Then where does the difficulty arise? Be- 

 cause, as I have already said, you have to pay con- 

 siderably more in the case of the cowman, who is 

 having to work a portion of his Saturday afternoon 

 and a portion of his Sunday. You cannot get him 

 at 47s. 



5234. 1 do not suggest you ought to get him at that ? 

 No, 1 do not either. 



5235. One other question with regard to control. 

 You are very anxious to get rid of control, and 1 am 

 not quarrelling with that; but is not it the experience 

 of the Ministry of Food that in answer to the demand 

 generally they took off control, and immediately j 

 went up so high that they had to reimpose control ? 

 To what article are you ref erring? 



5 230. There were several articles butter, mar- 

 garine, and those things. It is the general effect of 

 the taking off of control. I am not referring to any 

 particular articles. It seems to be your own idea to 

 tako off control, because you said in reply to one of 

 the Commissioners that ultimately, not immediately, 

 you thought prices might go down, but they might go 

 up at first?- -Yes. I am not in favour of taking off 

 control on everything at the present time. Personally, 

 I do think it should come off milk. I think control has 

 had the effect of causing the reduction in the output 

 of milk. 



5237. Would you be surprised if 1 told you that a 

 very important witness who has been here and given 

 evidence, said that tho one thing he thought control 

 should be maintained upon was milk? He is entitled 

 to his opinion ; I still stick to mine. I do not say 

 it from a j> : sonal or a farmer's point of view, but I 

 look at it more broadly from the national point of 

 view. 1 think it is our duty to try and produce all 

 the milk we can in the interests of the nation, and 

 we are trying to do that; and the suggestion I make 

 is with that object. 



5238. I may say the witness I have in my mind 

 had the same object in view ; but you have evidently 

 a different method of obtaining it? Yes, quite so. 



5239. W ith reference to women, you stated that 

 women with their present wages preferred to work 

 overtime? Yes. 



524U. Does that mean that their weekly wages are 

 so small that they have to work overtime to make 

 a decent living? No. At these overtime rates they 

 get extra pay, and I suppose they like to make a 

 little extra. 



5241. Are the women built any different from the 

 men ; because your contention, and that of other 

 employers, is that the men are making such high 

 wages and getting so well paid that no inducement 

 under Hea-u n will make- them work overtime? Yes, 

 I do agree with that with regard to the men. I was 

 perhapi .-linking of women more personally. The 

 two I have employed do not wish for the Saturday 

 afternoon holiday ; they prefer to work at the over- 

 time rates. I told my cowman he was to give them 

 it in rotation, and he said they did not want it. 



5212. I submit the only deduction to be drawn from 

 that is that women's wage* ure not enough, and they 

 !i:mi to work overtime in order t<> got a decent living 

 wage? They are earning from tr t<. .lo*. , week 

 according to the hour, that, they put in ; from that we 

 an. only deduct 1 Is. a week for their board. 



:,'2U\. [[..,., ,lo you work thai out, lx:oause I am 

 interested. I mean tho minimum rate of wages in 



Yorkshire is 7d. an hour? 7d. an hour between 7 and 

 5; and 9d. an hour before 7 and after 5. 



5243. How many hours do they work? They com- 

 mence at half past 5 in the morning, milking. 



5244. And finish when? I do not wish to say any- 

 thing against them. They go on till 7 at night. JVly 

 contention '-s that they could get done sooner. 



5245. Mr. Duncan: You state with regard to the 

 de-control of the milk supply that probably the first 

 effect would be an increase in the price and con- 

 sequently an increased production, which would bring 

 back the price again presumably to about the figure 

 where it is now? Possibly yes. 



5246. In what way would that help the position of 

 the dairy farmer situated as you are in Cleveland at 

 the present time? I said that I thought it would be 

 a benefit. I do, not see any benefit to us, but from a 

 national point of view. I think it would be beneficial 

 to the nation. I think there would be increased 

 supplies. 



5247. Where would these supplies be brought from? 

 What class of farmers would go into the milk trade 

 who are not in it now ? There are many cows out of 

 dairy herds that have been sold for beef undoubtedly, 

 as the farmer considered that the price of milk did 

 not pay. 



524*. But according to your own statement, tho 

 ultimate effect would not. be to maintain the dairy- 

 herds if the price were not put permanently higher. 

 Would these men simply because of de-control, and 

 with prices returning to the same level, increase 

 their dairy herds or stock producing dairy herds?- 

 They would know where they are. You never know 

 from one month to another now the price you have to 

 expect. That is where the uncertainty in the business 

 is caused. 



5249. Then your point is that you would rather 

 trust tho market than trust a controlled prico? That 

 is so. I am speaking rather personally that way. I 

 do not say every farmer is of that opinion, but that 

 is my own contention. 



5250. But when you come to wheat cultivation, you 

 are not prepared to trust the market ?--We are more 

 subject to foreign competition in the grain prices. 



5251. And you have not the same faith that you 

 would be able to maintain your prices as you would 

 in the milk trade? That is so. 



J. But if you have faith that the prices are to 

 be maintained in the milk trade, then that hardly 

 squares with your idea that the price would come 

 back to the present control price which is driving 

 dairy fanners out of the business? I think it is 

 better from the country's point of view that wo should 

 have a good supply of milk. I think milk is still one 

 of the cheapest commodities on tho market ; and I 

 think it is in the nation's interest that we should 

 have a supply of milk even if it were at a rather 

 increased cost. 



5253. So that your reconsidered opinion is that the 

 cost would be increased with de-control? For a time. 

 It is impossible to say what would be the effect in the 

 future; but I think it would tend to dairy cows being 

 kept rather than being sold out. It is an undoubted 

 fact that there arc numbers of herds being disposed of. 

 I know several in my district; I can speak of three 

 that sent 300 gallons a day into Middlesbrough, which 

 have already boen dis]x>sed of since the war. 



5254. Then as to those dairy farmers who have given 

 up milk production, what form of farming have they 

 gone into? Beef and mutton production. 



5256. Am I right in assuming that the estimate* 

 you have given here ns to the eost of cropping are on 

 mixed farms in Cleveland? I think so. 



5256. With a large proportion of them in milk or 

 meat production ? ^ >-. 



5257. Can you give us any balance sheets for those 

 fauns, showing the whole of tho farming operations; 

 so that we may tell what the results are over the 

 whole of the operations, and not with regard to any 

 particular crops you have given? No, I am not in a 

 position to do that. 



In estimating the results of farming in your 

 district, would you credit your milk production or your 

 beof production with the farmyard manure at WK. 

 a ton? Yes. That 10s. included carting on to ilie 

 land. 



