HOTAI. COMMISSION OJJ \> . KK I I. TUSK. 



VJ Any**, 1919.] 



MR. J. >.\i'i i i:. 



6984. I just wanted to niako sure that that was 

 your view? Ye; the natural conditions. 



6966. Mr. Protitr Junti : In Cheshire we have some 

 large induatriea in addition to agriculture? Yes. 



0066. And labour, which is the only commodity a 

 man has to offer, has two markets. He can either 

 offer it to the railway men, or soap factory, or 

 engineering factory, or to the farmer? Yes. 



6967. The railway men are offered 63s. up to 60s., 

 and the farmers offer 33s. to 43s., say? We have no 

 such wages as those in Cheshire. 



6968. What have you? 48s. for first grade of men. 



6989. Is that the maximum? No, by no means. 

 That i the minimum for the first grade men. 



6990. Is it near the 53s. that we were given by Mr. 

 Clarkson? 48s. is the present arrangement for first 

 grade men as a minimum. 



6991. As compared with 53s. in the railway near 

 by? I do not know whether that is tho minimum 



6993. We were given that figure by someone. What 

 I wanted to ask was this : Would not a man naturally 

 go where he will get tho t>est price? Ye*. 



6993. And do you blame the farm labourer for doing 

 the same thing? Not a bit. 



6994. la there any hope of an increased supply of 

 farm labourers whilst the wages are below those paid 

 in other industries? I think the only consideration 

 should be as to whether the competing employment 

 is equally, shall we say. agreeable. You could not 

 compare a farm labourer with a miner, for instance. 

 That would apply in a lesser degree to other indus- 

 tries, and that ought to be taken into consideration 

 when comparing the two wages; or, as you quite 

 properly put it. the two markets that the man lias 

 for his labour. On general principles, if the ron-li- 

 tions of employment arc equal, then I should say 

 that the worker would naturally and instinctively, 

 aa I should myself, select that field for his labour 

 where he could get the most money and work the 

 least number of hours. I am not sure if that quite 

 answer* your question. 



Mr. Prosser Jonei : Yes. 



6995. Mr. Lennard : In general, would you agree 

 that in dairy farming you need a particularly good 

 type of labourer, as the work is so largely of a respon- 

 sible kind? For the looking after your cattle and 

 the management of your horses, undoubtedly you do. 

 You want rather nbove the ordinary rough and tumble 

 man ; but outside of that I do not" see that you do. 



6998. To secure a good type of men, it is necessary, 



of course, to make the position of labour attractive? 



Yes. 



6997. And that is specially necessary in dairy farm- 

 ing, because of the exacting nature of the hours? 



1 I' 1 *. 



8998. Yon are aware, I suppose, that the soldiers 

 during the war have had considerable opportunities 

 of taking part in games and sports in their camps. 

 Would you agree that to make agricultural employ- 

 ment attractive to them it is very necessary that 

 even-thing possible shouid be .lone to make recreation 

 of that kind available for them? Yes; and it has 

 been done to a very large extent long before the war. 



6999. But yon have found Jifficultv with regard to 

 the Saturday half-ho]iday?-Tho Saturday half-holi- 

 day is, as Mr. CTarkson has said, a new feature and 

 there n an unwillingness to take on a new feature 

 and I am afraid that for dairy farm purposes it is 

 impracticable. 



7000. You do not thin* it could ho managed at all? 

 Would yon like me to amplify it? 



7001. No. It if your opinion. I want to tell voTT 

 hing that is in my mind that I am afraid of, and 



would like to know your opinion about it. I have 

 eon a good deal of young men who have served in th- 

 ranks and my impression is that when they are first 



lemobihsed their only desire is to get home, and that 

 they are very willing to go back to their old employ- 

 ment and old village life, for a time. But I am rather 

 afraid that farmers maj bo somewhat deceived bv 



that and not realise the importance of making the 

 cond.tion, specially attractive to retain them on tho 



,r i I *,? T v to .r, nmc Wk Bt *"*' but i > 



Mlbtfd whether tnev |, , .,,,, ,,.,, pn t))p 



beauty of the return h me has r.ithor worn off. 



Do you think there is much in that?- Yes, I think 

 thcro is. 



7UI-J. Mr. Xicholis: What do you think with regard 

 to the future prospect in the case of the man referred 

 to by Mr. Ixmnard? Do you really think that some of 

 these men have had tho impression lately that they 

 can get almost anything they want by going to some 

 other particular industry or some town near by, and 

 that when they discover there are not the same open- 

 ings for them that they really thought there were, 

 and they discover there is unemployment in the town, 

 and on going to the Exchanges for jobs they cannot 

 get them, they will be more inclined to come back 

 again to the farm? Yes; it is a passing phase. 



7003. Then I want to ask you whether you think it 

 possible, with a view to making the Saturday change 

 possible, to arrange for one man to have his turn off, 

 because really the milking must be done on the Satur- 

 day afternoon. We all admit that. Is it possible. (In 

 you think, to organise and arrange it so that the man 

 in turn has his time off? That would be quite 



on a fairly large farm, NO that you did not send too 

 many away on each Saturday afternoon. I am not 

 sure that the men would agree to that though ; luit 

 on a smaller farm where you cannot spare one, the. 

 liility of an arrangement seems rather remote. 



7004. Have you found any desire on the part of 

 the men and the farmers to make an arrangement 

 for the former to have their holiday in one strcU li 

 instead of having half a day a week?- -It has been 

 suggested by the farmers in quite a number of in- 

 rtanj 



7005. What about the o'.her side? This has not 

 been very fully considered. I think, but may be in the 

 future. I am inclined to th'nk that that is a way 

 out of tho difficulty. 



7006. Do I understand that you are in favour of the 

 fixed prices for milk ; I mean for the Government to 

 control it and go on fixing a standard price for it? 

 Permanently ? 



7007. Y.<' I think under all the circumstances I 

 should have to answer Yes to the first part of the 

 <|in->tion, hut I am not in favour of Government 

 control. 



7008. I was wondering whether after your long cr- 

 perience you had come to the conclusion, with the 

 desiro of Governments and Departments to leave 

 labour alone, it would be better to leave everything 

 else alone, and let farmers have the freo play of the 

 market, and let the Government take its hands off, 

 and the farmers negotiate with the Unions without 

 any Wages Board or anything else? That is as to 

 labour you mean? 



7009. Yes ; the Farmers' Union negotiate with the 

 Workers' Union? I am inclined to think that, with- 

 out the intervention of the Wages Board, the 

 two bodies which are now fairly organised in 

 the counties I am speaking largely with reference 

 to Cheshire now would be able to manage that 

 business quite well ns to wages and hours and con- 

 ditions of employment. 



7010. Would yon be prepared in that case to say, 

 " Leave us alone with our labour, and we will take 

 the risks in the market "?- Yes. 



7011. Mr. Smith : 1 notice you state in the main 

 part of your evidence when you are referring to )>cttcr 

 method* of organisation and train service, that it 

 would reduce largely the very serious quantity of 

 sour milk. Have you any idea 'of the extent to which 



takes place in that respect?- No, we have no 

 statistics: but it is a very heavy charge upon the 

 industry as a whole. 



7012. And therefore .with this letter organisation 

 in reaching market*, great economies could bo 

 effected? Undoubtedly. 



7013. Which would help the farmer to meet these 

 '1 labnm- i c.sta? Yes. 



7014. I notice you rather suggest a 58 hour week? 

 1 1**. 



7015. Are vou convinced that that is reallv necessarv 

 for the well being ,rf the industry?- If 'you follow 



follows, of course, on my first statement 

 the general principle, and it is "the natural con- 

 itions controlling ,1, industry that T am referring 

 Fhe cows have to be milked twice each day, and you 

 cannot get away from that no matter what arrange- 

 ments you mnke. Then in carrying that out, yon see 



